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Gigging vs Smallmouth conflict

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Posted · Report post

Here's an article done on the subject. I can tell you that the lady did her homework on this.

STLToday

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Hey Wayne,

Good article. I can tell you that a few years back I was camping and trout fishing on the North fork of the White river. I didn't even know you could ram up that beautiful river in the middle of the night with a motor boat and gig fish. I sat on the bank and listened to a boatload of drunken giggers scrape the bottom all night - and from many of their comments I know they weren't just gigging suckers. They weren't "mistaking" browns for suckers - they were targeting them. As for the "policing themselves" comment - hehehehehehehehehehehehe that may be the funniest thing I have ever read!!!! There are many "locals" down there - not all of course, but many who sort of feel isolated from any law - as anyone who has lived out "in the sticks" can vouch for. They have been going out and spending the night drinking and gigging for years and ain't no outsider going to tell them what to do. I took this up with the MDC and basically got brushed off - with the same old, "there are violations in all areas, and we can't catch them all" nonsense that they usually spew. I don't even know if it is still legal to gig on the North Fork - but it sure seems to me that if you make it OK and the MDC turns it's badge the other way - then you are going to get lots of things speared.

JS

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Posted · Report post

Can you say CAMCORDER!!!

it been " we have done it for years' atttude by meat fisherman

until some "examples are set" it will continue

Mo

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When I talked to Kathy on the phone, she was a lot more upset about this herself than she wrote in the article, which seemed to me to be pretty even-handed. I too think she did a good job under the constraints of space.

Few anglers spend more time on the Meramec and Gasconade in the winter than Nick Hamra. If he's seriously upset about this, it IS an issue.

Unfortunately, the basic response from MDC is no different from what it ever was. In fact, Kathy told me that one biologist, who shall remain nameless here because I almost always respect him and his work otherwise, suggested that what look like gig scars on smallmouths may actually be scars from great blue heron attacks. How ridiculous is that? Funny how those scars are most likely to show up on bass that are too big for a heron to swallow, and it's funny how I've only seen FRESH wounds on bass during the gigging season...oh, yeah, and it's also funny that those herons have long enough necks to reach bass in the deep water that they are almost always in during the day in cold weather. I'm as big a supporter of MDC as anybody, but they are abdicating their responsibility on this one because they don't want to stir up the good ol' boy hornet's nest, and possibly also because they seriously DON'T know what to do to curb this.

Pray for LOTS of rain next autumn!

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Posted · Report post

Good Article. Hope MDC will actually step up to the plate and do something on this issue. Folks have been complaining about jet boat traffic, & illegal gigging on the Meramec for years and nothing has ever been done about it. I'd love to see an experiment were they got rid of gigging between Hwy 8 and Onandaga. I'm sure that both the trout and bass fishing would improve. I'd also like to see some limits placed on the number of commercial canoe rentals, and horsepower restrictions. 25hp should be more than enough.

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Hey Wayne,

Good article. I can tell you that a few years back I was camping and trout fishing on the North fork of the White river. I didn't even know you could ram up that beautiful river in the middle of the night with a motor boat and gig fish. I sat on the bank and listened to a boatload of drunken giggers scrape the bottom all night -

JS

Supposed to be off the river by midnight... if they were truly out all night, they are the poaching fringe that plagues every sport.

I agree the article was pretty even-handed, but I didn't get this paragraph:

Glen Sims, of Gravois Mill, is also upset. "I've been wade-fishing on the Gasconade when a jetboat passed by, went around an upstream bend and shut down. A few minutes later, I'd notice dead smallmouth bass drifting downstream," Sims said.

What the heck is that all about? Is he wading at night, and they are upstream gigging smallmouth from a boat that is shut down?

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I just re-read the article, and I still don't get the paragraph that quoted this mysterious "Glen Sims", and his tale of smallmouth carnage. To me, this paragraph does some significant damage to the article. I am a bit sensitive knowing that there are many who would do away with the sport altogether, at once or incrementally, and so have a seemingly endless supply of embellished first-person horror stories to support their preferred usage of a shared natural resource (river).

I'm not doubting that game fish are gigged illegally or inexperiencedly (sp?), and I'm not necessarily opposed to closing some stretches of specially-managed smallmouth waters (as they have done in trout management areas). In fact, I say form a citizen's committee and put Al in the lead!

BUT, I think you all would find much broader support for this if the consensus was the current laws are adequately enforced. The issue reminds me a bit of gun control.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I agree. The mysterious "Glen Sims" and his account of the Small Mouth Carnage seems about as believeable as the people who will swear on a stack of bibles and under the threat of eternal damnation "that so and so went diving at X Dam and would never go again because they seen "Man Eating Catfish" down there."

You are ablsolutly correct in your assesment of how people would go about doing away with the sport all together.

I am not a gigger but I do support the sport.

Edited by gonefishin

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Posted · Report post

Well I'll ask Glen and get back to ya'll, but I can tell you for a fact that he's not prone to tall tales.

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This article is tough on the gigging community. As sportsman, we have too many groups outside the hunting and fishing community that would like to limit our right’s, lets not alienate each other. I am an avid smallmouth bass fisherman that would love to see better management of the states fishery. Most of my time spent fishing is on the waters of the meramec and current rivers. The meramec in the trophy SMB management area is a great fishery, however, it is nearly unfishable during the summer months due to the masses that float the stream.

The current river has a large number of SMB. Unfortunately, it is tough to catch many fish over 13-14 inches. The river is used extremely heavy in the summer months by floaters above two rivers, and boaters below. This would be a great stream to change to a SMB managed area allowing the fish a chance to get to trophy status. I am sure that there are more SMB removed from the stream by the recreational users taking legal fish by legal methods than from giggers. Limiting the SMB length and limits would cause the vast majority of the fish to be released to grow and fight again. Most recreational fisherman are law abiding and would not want to break the rules and would willingly abide.

Fish gigging is a ton of fun. I have been fishing gigging for 20 + years and had very few illegal fish brought into the boat. The rivers have plenty of suckers, which most giggers prefer. However, mistakes do happen and when a error is made, unfortunately the fish will not survive. I am sure far fewer smallmouth bass are removed from the water by giggers than are taken by bait fisherman and recreational fisherman that remove the fish legally. Trout on the other hand are hard to distinguish from suckers and trout water should be protected. Most giggers are honest respectable sportsman that would not purposely kill game fish.

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I agree the article was pretty even-handed, but I didn't get this paragraph:

Glen Sims, of Gravois Mill, is also upset. "I've been wade-fishing on the Gasconade when a jetboat passed by, went around an upstream bend and shut down. A few minutes later, I'd notice dead smallmouth bass drifting downstream," Sims said.

What the heck is that all about? Is he wading at night, and they are upstream gigging smallmouth from a boat that is shut down?

When I read Kathys accounting of what I said I was afraid it would be confusing. I told her that the "breaking point for me was on a late evening float/wade, we had paddled up and were standing just below a riffle when the gig boat came from downstream, we stepped aside and they accellerated to shoot the riffle. Once through the riffle they backed off to an idle and eased around the bend out of sight (we could still hear them, but could not see them). several minutes later my buddy says "looky here" and points to a solid 3 lber drifting through the riffle, I waded out to it and sure enough, it was stuck right through its guts (looked like they had stuck it from a 45 degree angle to the side). Before it got to dark to see clearly we counted two more smallies. I WAS FIT TO BE TIED ! and mad enough to destroy some trailer tires and call the law had their truck been at the access where we paddled up from. But it wasn't.

No, I don't "wade the river in the dark", it was not dark yet, they didn't have their lights on when they came upriver, and the boat was not shut down, just idling". If I had thought that they were "up to no good" I would have gotten the numbers when they came by, but they slowed down and waited for us to get out of the way before they shot the riffle, we moved aside and gave a friendly wave to let them know it was ok to go for it. I haven't ever done any gigging but it obviously doesn't have to be "dark of the night" to gig.

At the rate they were going I'd bet my last dollar that those guys that nite killed 10-15 bass.

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I agree. The mysterious "Glen Sims" and his account of the Small Mouth Carnage seems about as believeable as the people who will swear on a stack of bibles and under the threat of eternal damnation "that so and so went diving at X Dam and would never go again because they seen "Man Eating Catfish" down there."

Mysterious Glen Sims ? I'm afraid the mystery spawned from the editing and/or the person doing the quoting.

Most giggers are honest respectable sportsman that would not purposely kill game fish.

I wish I believed that.

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Posted · Report post

Seems to me if we are willing to get rid of the giggers because they are no help to the SMB populations we should also be willing to get rid of the floaters because they sure dont help either. And then of course we have to figure out what to do about the bait fishermen (Bluegill, catfish crappie ect) who occasionally catch a SMB accidentally. Then we would have to figure out what to do about the White Bass, Crappie Largemouth Bass fishermen who occasionally catch a Small Mouth because they sure dont help either.......

The point is once certain groups of people are targeted to dislike then there is no end in sight. There will always be a reason to dislilke some group or another. Best thing to do is live and let live. If there are problems with a few people in a certain area then the MDC should be informed and the informer should let the MDC handle it and go on about his/her business.

I dont gig but I have known a lot of people who gig/grab/fish for suckers. Most of them wouldnt give a nickle for a Bass or Trout or anyother fish that swims. They want suckers period. I cant deny there are always exceptions but they are just that.

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Wow! Phil's got quite an "e" community here... everybody knows everybody. Kicknbass, great 1st post!

Glen, thanks for chiming in... and thanks for that telling peak into your psyche. I disagree that most snaggers are poachers, same as I do not believe most canoe-bound smallmouth fishermen are snobs.

I think it's unfortunate that some giggers are giving our sport a bad name. It is equally unfortunate that some would push their fellow sportsmen over the "slippery slope" of more and more regs (or outright banishment of their sport). We've all see it before with hound hunting, bear baiting, fox hunting, etc. Decisions based on "viscera" rather than sound management, and no respect for tradition.

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Posted · Report post

ATL giging thread

Here's another gigging debate that I think better states my true feelings about it. I go by "fishinwrench" on that board.

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See guys, now we are getting somewhere. Now we are hearing the pros and cons of river fishing. Personally, I could care less if gigging was illigal, but I know that isn't the real solution to the problem. I too think there is some bad apples mixed in the bunch that gives way to problems on our streams. Maybe we should have a statewide length limit on smallies? ( bigger than 12" ) I know several streams around here still have the 12" length and I rarely see them get any bigger than that in those streams. It is sad when you see average joes taking little fish or more fish than they should. Sometimes there are kids along that think Dad is doing ok by taking those sub-legal or over limit fish and that is when it is really a sad thing to see. They will most generally grow up thinking it is ok to do this. My Dad still keeps everything that is legal to keep and fillets them out. That was the way he was taught. I use to be that way until I realized that a trophy stringer of smallies hurt the future of the streams I fish. Times have changed since I was even a boy and at the rate our fisherys are going I sometimes wonder if my grandkids will be able to enjoy what I have.

Oh yeah, this is about gigging smallies. I say protect them more like we do our trout waters.

Edited by ollie

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Posted · Report post

Seems to me if we are willing to get rid of the giggers

I don't know anyone who advocates that. They're may be some, but I don't know them. I know several people, myself included, that believe some waters should be protected, that more enforcement efforts are needed in some areas, and maybe stiffer penalties. Whats being suggested by those I know has precedence all through the code.

We simply want Suckers gigged and Smallies and Trout caught.

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Guys, I think I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it again...

The problem with gigging is, unlike any other "legal" method of taking fish, you can specifically target the biggest bass in the river. For that reason alone, it's different from fishing out of season, or keeping over the limit, or even just fishing. It doesn't really matter if the majority of giggers don't gig game fish (and I believe that to be true). It only takes a few bad apples to decimate the population of LARGE ADULT smallmouths. I believe, and I'm far from the only one, that illegal gigging is one of the most significant factors in depressing the number of large adult bass in the Meramec. I can't speak for other rivers because I don't spend enough time on them. But I find it interesting that my experience in recent years has been that the fishing for larger fish has declined on the streams big enough for jetboats and gigging from jetboats, and has either stayed the same or increased on streams that are too small for jetboats but big enough for canoe traffic...including streams that have a LOT of canoe traffic and a lot of angling pressure. I also find it interesting that my experience for many years has been that there are more smallmouths with gig scars on them after a gigging season with lots of clear water than the seasons that get a lot of rain and more murky water. The Meramec was exceptionally clear this whole past autumn and winter, and the problem seems to have been worse than ever.

I agree that gigging should not be outlawed, though I sometimes wish it had been outlawed long ago. It IS an aberration...anglers I've spoken to from other states have no concept of gigging, except to relate it to spearing pike in some northern states.

But if you don't believe it is a problem, you either haven't spent enough time on the larger streams during the fall and winter, or you're sticking your head in the sand. Kicknbass has a good point that we shouldn't be alienating each other, and in reality the only answer to it is MUCH better enforcement, and a lot of peer pressure to discourage the bad apples. Outlawing it is unrealistic, and limiting the season probably wouldn't help all that much. Unfortunately, illegal gigging is extremely easy to do without being caught.

I would like to see the smallmouth management area of the Meramec closed to gigging as an experimental regulation for a few years, just to see what that did to the population of larger bass. Once we saw whether it made a difference or not, we'd have a lot better handle on how much effect illegal gigging is having.

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Wow, I didn't expect such a response from my first post. It is great to see that so many are serious about the topic.

I have gigged for years, and kill hundreds of suckers. Suckers are schooling fish that like open water, as do trout. SMB typically are structure oriented found in the deepest water in the winter hid in the structure. You really do not see many bass on a nights outing. Most nights gigging on the meramec I will never see a bass. Al Agnew, - I'll take you out gigging and give you $10 for every bass that you see if you'll give me $10 for every hour that we gig w/o seeing a bass. More big bass are harvested legally by floaters casually fishing each year than by gigging. Gigging is really not a huge threat to the SMB population.

If you have never tried gigging, you should so that you could understand that it does not pose the threat that you fear. Most of the folks that I know in the gigging community are just average outdoorsmen that enjoy the night out on the river. These are people that support your right to fish and hunt. They just enjoy a different method than you.

Trout waters are protected and should be protected from gigging for two reasons. First, there is a very limited number of trout waters in the state. All ozark streams that are gigging water is good smallmouth water eliminating gigging in smallmouth waters would eliminate gigging. Trout water is limited to less that 5% (I'm guessing) of all ozark streams. The second reason is that trout are similar to suckers feeding in the same open waters and trout and yellow suckers are nearly indistinguishable. Even the most experienced gig fisherman will gig trout accidentally. SMB are much easier to identify. Most SMB are killed in deep water near the limit of the visible depth. Changing the length and creel limits would be and have proven much more effective.

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Kickinbass...I'll take you up on that offer if you let me decide where to look for the bass! I've done enough gigging to know that you're exactly right, the bass and suckers don't hang out in the same places. Which means that those who are gigging bass ARE intentionally targeting them, because if they were only targeting suckers they wouldn't be seeing many bass. Especially largemouths even more than smallmouths. So why am I and others seeing so many dead gigged bass and bass with gig scars on the Meramec?

Bass at night are almost always close to cover, though they tend to often come up shallower at night in the autumn than where they are during the day. They are easy to gig IF you find them, and the only way to really find them is to specifically look for them. Kickinbass, YOU might not be looking for them, and most or all of your friends may not, but that doesn't mean EVERYBODY is not. When I've gigged, I've often gone into the places where I know the bass will be, just to see what's there. I have no trouble seeing bass that I could gig if I was so inclined. I suspect that some giggers just happen upon the occasional bass and gig it for the heck of it. But I KNOW that some intentionally look for them and gig them regularly. Again, IT DOESN'T TAKE MANY PEOPLE DOING THIS TO MAKE A REAL DENT IN THE BIGGER BASS. Your assertion that more big smallmouths are taken by casual floaters than by giggers is supposition, and I think it's supposition not supported by facts...and I don't have real facts on my assertion that gigging is such a significant drain on the big bass population, either. That's why I think it would be very instructive to close just one stream segment to gigging for a few years and study the populations of game fish in it to determine what effect gigging is really having.

Again...I'm not advocating banning gigging. But giggers are going to have police their own ranks more, and MDC needs to get more serious about policing the sport.

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Posted · Report post

Guys, I think I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it again...

I believe, and I'm far from the only one, that illegal gigging is one of the most significant factors in depressing the number of large adult bass in the Meramec.

These are people that support your right to fish and hunt. They just enjoy a different method than you.

I agree on the 1st quote--ONE bad apple can ruin a stretch of river for years just ONE

on number two, I have heard that argument before that the fringe groups "support" others right to hunt and fish--does that mean if gigging was banned you would not rod and reel fish? or support hunting and fishing rights?--hardly--that mindset is used to illisit support from those who otherwise would not....

if you do a little history checking you will see a great deal of resistance to change back at the turn of the century, when game laws where 1st enacted--heck back then they used dynomite and gillnets to harvest fish

I am sure if the state put a season on those methods-- we would have a few use nets and TNT

Gigging gives THE POTENTAL of overharvesting the top 5% of smallmouths in a river--flatheads are very dormant as well and get harvested even though it illegal to snag them in winter--there are those that target them

do I have an answer?- nope..but the way to get change is to organize and speak up for reg changes

My 2 cents

Mo

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Posted · Report post

If gigging is eliminated on some waters, it won't mean that the Suckers won't be utilized because they can still allow grabbing.

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The laws are already on the books banning gigging of game fish. I agree that law enforcement is a tool that should be utilized greater than current levels. I also agree that one bad apple can hurt the population. But lets not legislate against the law abiding. I would love it if the state increased the number of SMB management areas in the state, but not if it means restricting the rights of the gigging community. If you have found areas that have a large number of trophy bass being targeted. Report this to the local MDC agent and maybe they can get the funding for greater enforcement in these areas. Most of the gigging community would absolutely support enforcement of the game laws to help the SMB population. Most of the gigging community are SMB fisherman in the warmer months.

The waters in the state that are the best gigging waters are also some of the best SMB waters. The gigging community has been around for many years and as the rod and reel community have become more conservation minded. Look in the old photos of BASS and you will see that catch and release was not always the ways of most sportsmen. There are still some bad apples, just like there are bad apples in the rod and real community that will take short fish and excess of their limits.

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If you have found areas that have a large number of trophy bass being targeted. Report this to the local MDC agent and maybe they can get the funding for greater enforcement in these areas.

unless MDC enforcement agents work 2 or 3 nights a week setting sting operations like is done with deer & turkey decoys to catch road hunters--I do not see it working as it only takes ONE night and ONE bad apple to ruin a stretch of river--that cannot be said of even a rod and reel violater who could not even on the best of days decimate the big smallie population on a given day--over time yes --

but not to the extent of what a rouge gigger could do, anyone that knows giggers have all heard the storys of misconduct, not all giggers violate the law, but the ones that do, rob ALL OF US of rare trophy smallies that takes years to replace if ever.

the question is does the love of gigging out weigh the need to protect big smallies???

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In my opinion, the issue is not about the love of gigging, or the love of smallies, but the slow erosion of our rights as outdoorsman. The enviro wackos and groups such as PETA that are well funded and actively protest Fishing tournaments such as they did at last years Citco Bassmasters classic in Pittsburgh PA would love to eliminate Gigging, then bait fishing then fishing in general. The goal is called divide and concur. First they get the fishing community to divide and eliminate gigging in SMB waters. Then they advocate against bait fisherman, then all fishing. Lets not turn on the gigging community because we don't believe it is a valid form of fishing. Gigging is the oldest form of fishing.

The gig fishermen were gigging the SMB management waters before the idea was a thought. If the gig fisherman were decimating the populations, then why has the SMB management areas improved with the new management laws? If gigging in these areas were such a determent, the management laws would not have had such a drastic effect improving the fishing in these waters. My experience is that the laws have greatly improved the fishing in these areas. However, the gigging pressure has remained somewhat constant.

Law enforcement should be better funded to set up sting operations and have a greater presence on the rivers during gigging season as they do during the Deer and Turkey seasons. It would be relatively easy to do w/ the limited access to the rivers. The gigging boats must come back to their rigs to trailer and leave. A presence at the SMB management areas would have an effect on the mindset of the poachers.

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In my opinion, the issue is not about the love of gigging, or the love of smallies, but the slow erosion of our rights as outdoorsman. The enviro wackos and groups such as PETA that are well funded and actively protest Fishing tournaments such as they did at last years Citco Bassmasters classic in Pittsburgh PA would love to eliminate Gigging.

to call more restrictive harvest methods to fall into plans of any "green" org is like saying supporting a "flys only" area of a stream to be in league with peta--

in this day and age streams are under pressure like never before--a few rouge giggers would not have any long term effect in the old days--but today combined with greater and greater demands on our Ozark streams--gigging may belong in the past with buffalo hunts and clear cutting the hills by tie hackers,

The old days a wood torch or later a colman lantern, is replaced today with modern haolgen spotlite powerd by 21st century batteries that can go for 10 hours on a charge.. allowing one to be effective longer on the river, many giggers now use archeryfishing gear that allows greater ranger and the ability to quickly harvest many more fish than was possable even just 20 years ago-----

sometimes those fish are 5 pound smallmouth bass--whether its a woops or a intoxicated misjudgment--that bass is GONE, most rod and reel folks might mount the fish... but rare would they eat it, in some waters its a problem as witness by the newspaper artical,

in the past orgs like trout unlimited came to the help of anglers to better trout fishing beyond what state govs did...may be its time for a smallmouth unlimited to do the same

JMHO

Mo

Edited by MoCarp

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gigging may belong in the past with buffalo hunts and clear cutting the hills by tie hackers,

Your willingness to throw other sportsmen under the train, abolishing a sport you've obviously never tried (or certainly have never gained experience in) puts you in bed with PETA because it is not resource-management decision, it is a "I don't do it and I don't like it" decision. I'd be very surprised if any smallmouth organization would last long if it were to alienate and demonize a significant portion of its fellow sportsmen, when there are so many other more important issues (gravel mining, non-point source pollution, green belts, etc.).

The old days a wood torch or later a colman lantern, is replaced today with modern haolgen spotlite powerd by 21st century batteries that can go for 10 hours on a charge.. allowing one to be effective longer on the river, many giggers now use archeryfishing gear that allows greater ranger and the ability to quickly harvest many more fish than was possable even just 20 years ago-----

There are so many things wrong here, from battery-powered lights to "the archery fishing gear"... all I can say is that a little more knowledge of the sport you seek to abolish would improve the credibility of your position. One last thing.. it is suckers we are killing and eating (not harvesting), and unless we are discussing a shortage of redhorse or hog mollies, I guess I don't get the argument against the technical improvements in our sport!

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Oh boy. Where do you start. Well - if we are going to throw everyone who wants to see more limited gigging and better law enforcement in with "Peta and Wackos" then I guess who's the other side? "Backwards hillbillies out all night drinkin corn liquor and spearin whatever they see" ??? It works both ways.

And "Divide and conquer"?? I am sorry, but if you hate to see the "tradition" of gigging like it has existed in the past - get attacked like - "Bear baiting" - and "Fox hunting"???? I mean you are now putting gigging in with those two? Wow - I sure admire your honesty- - - Just to clarify you really were lamenting the way people have stood up against the archaic redneck practice of "baiting" a bear in close enough to kill it right? Geeesh - Well if that is the position of the "gigging community of sportsmen" - Then move over PETA and give me some blanket cause I'm coming in.

JS

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Yeah ya know I'm about "over" hearing what a "Genuine Ozark Tradition" gigging is....

Marrying your cousin is a genuine ozark tradition too, but they quit that crap a long time ago once they learned of the damage it caused. :D

Lets not turn on the gigging community because we don't believe it is a valid form of fishing. Gigging is the oldest form of fishing.

Nobody is "turning on it" because of that. They are "turning on it" because the evidence that it IS a problem is like a slap in the face to anyone that spends a reasonable amount of time on the rivers.

Furthermore, this debate is no more fueling PETA than the vice Pres. hunting accident is fueling gun control.

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Oh boy. Where do you start. Well - if we are going to throw everyone who wants to see more limited gigging and better law enforcement in with "Peta and Wackos" then I guess who's the other side? "Backwards hillbillies out all night drinkin corn liquor and spearin whatever they see" ??? It works both ways.

Peta and the Wackos would love to drive a wedge between like minded sportsman that may have a differance of opinion on a specific topic. But I guess you don't see a differance between the legal taking of suckers by the use of a gig vs. poaching SMB. You obviously have a low opinion of the gigging community calling them backwards hillbillies drunk on corn liquor. It appears the wedge is placed and the maul is midswing.

how do you use the quote. I need a lesson.

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And "Divide and conquer"?? I am sorry, but if you hate to see the "tradition" of gigging like it has existed in the past - get attacked like - "Bear baiting" - and "Fox hunting"???? I mean you are now putting gigging in with those two? Wow - I sure admire your honesty- - - Just to clarify you really were lamenting the way people have stood up against the archaic redneck practice of "baiting" a bear in close enough to kill it right? Geeesh - Well if that is the position of the "gigging community of sportsmen" - Then move over PETA and give me some blanket cause I'm coming in.

JS

I can't speak for other blood-thirsty giggers, just as I'm sure not all flyfishermen suffer your anthropomorphism, but yes I see a correlation here. I understand and respect that areas have unique tradition and relationship with their natural world. What did you think when you heard that Great Britain outlawed the centuries-old tradition of fox hunts? I have nothing but pity and disdain for those people who "stood up" as you say against hunting rights.

In Wisconsin, I have family who hunt bear with bait. There is no other effective way to hunt bear in that type of country. You see, we kill animals to eat them, and use their fur, and hang trophies, and we do not apologize for it for even a second. We are able to watch Grizzly Adams reruns and the Brother Bear cartoon and still keep things in perspective.

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I am sorry, I just don't buy the arguments being made against gigging. First if it is so damaging why does the fishing here in Missouri just keep getting better? Second I notice that the people arguing against gigging have to resort to derogatory sterotyping people Ya kno about us hillbilly (aka rednecks) marrying our cousins ect. People who have to resort to that type of arguing don't really have anything to say they are only taking cheap pot shots because they dont have anything interesting much less important to say.

The simple fact is there are a few people out there who dont like to share the water with people who gig because they dont like it and they are willing to do anything in their power to get the giggers off "their water".

Tell you what though, I will support your dislike of gigging if you will support a couple of my pet peeves. First I don't like canoers. I think float trips should be banned because the float trippers pollute the fishing waters with trash and human excretement as well as disturb the bottom when wading (like shufflers). They make no end of noise, get intoxicated, throw their cigarette butts and beer cans in the water and in short make a general nusiance of their selves and worse yet they get in the way of my fishing and outdoor pleasure, I like peace and quiet when I am fishing. Second I dont like boats that use fossil fuels to power them. They are noisy, pollute the waters and I have seen fish that have been crippled and/or killed when the prop hit them. I have not noticed any smart boat props out there that avoid hitting record size Small Mouths. The wakes caused by power boats also cause erosion of the banks on our streams and lakes. This certainly is not any good for our lakes, streams and fish populations. Who all is willing to sign the petition to have these pursits which are damaging to our streams, lakes and fish populations stopped?

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Guys, there is no need for for miffyness, Kickin--I have gigged/grabbed suckers--and plan on doing it some this spring--infact don't we have a limit on hogmollys now???

most of us hunt-fish--eggad even trap--yet IF you are on the rivers--you know that the problem is real, Yes fishin INHO is getting better on the rivers, mainly due to 2 things--better water quality--and a lot more catch and release

one thing HAS changed--a lot more folks use the rivers

I too wish there where controlls on just how many canoes can be on the river--we may see that one day

I usally do not fish elk river till its low enough to limit canoes

do they litter--sure but I know some non fishing canoers that pick up a lot of trash

the issue is are people who want to see limits placed on gigging to protect trophy smallies in bed with PETA..I think most on this board says no!

Its just a disagreement between user groups--once one gets big enough over the other--then regs get changed

But then if tradition is your thing--then gig by coleman lantern and scull a wooden jon boat--the suckers will taste the same

Mo

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I am sorry, I just don't buy the arguments being made against gigging. First if it is so damaging why does the fishing here in Missouri just keep getting better? Second I notice that the people arguing against gigging have to resort to derogatory sterotyping people Ya kno about us hillbilly (aka rednecks) marrying our cousins ect. People who have to resort to that type of arguing don't really have anything to say they are only taking cheap pot shots because they dont have anything interesting much less important to say.

Gonefishin', I wasn't taking a "potshot", I was just trying to inject a little humor into the topic before it gets "heated". Hell, if you think I'd kick a sexy cousin outa bed, you're crazy :P

...same goes for sexy Giggers :o

BTW, how many more posts do I have to make to escape this "chestnut Lamprey" status ?

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Yes, a disagreement between 2 user groups, except 1 group is advocating the wholesale abolishment of the other.

Here's what I hope is my last take on this thing... I might be willing to break with some on my side and support an experimental ban (with a sunset clause) on some particular stretch of specially-managed water. Keep it quantitative and transparent. Run a couple of other stretches as "controls" with 18" length limits or some such management tool for comparison.

BUT- to ban my sport on a stretch of river that allows the "harvest" :wacko: of 5 SMB over 12" is ludicrous, and I'll fight it tooth and nail.

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Here's what I hope is my last take on this thing... I might be willing to break with some on my side and support an experimental ban (with a sunset clause) on some particular stretch of specially-managed water. Keep it quantitative and transparent. Run a couple of other stretches as "controls" with 18" length limits or some such management tool for comparison.

OR, here's an idea... giggers could just stop punching holes in gamefish, all would be forgotten, and we could all live happily ever after. Let's try that as an experiment instead.

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OR, here's an idea... giggers could just stop punching holes in gamefish, all would be forgotten, and we could all live happily ever after. Let's try that as an experiment instead.

Glen Sims, are you accusing me of poaching?

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Quote the line that made you wonder.

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hhhuuuuuummmmmmm..... Well - apparently I need to clarify a bit. It was no I who started the name calling - my "hillbillies" response was to lumping anyone who raised so much as an eyebrow towards gigging to be in bed with Peta. I think you guys have some serious guilt issues hangning over your heads. I can't see why, I mean calling a bear up with a leg of chicken and then blasting it in the head seems sporting enough to me. :D

Marrying your cousin is a genuine ozark tradition too, but they quit that crap a long time ago once they learned of the damage it caused.

What?? They QUIT that too???? Dangit!

:lol:

JS

PS - Kicknbass - To use the quote feature, when you are making your post, go to the other post you want to quote from and highlight the words to be quoted - right click and copy - then paste it in your post and highlight it and then select the quote tool and voila! -

Your pal the maul swinger

Sims - congrats on your "Duskystripe Shiner" status :blush:

JS

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Quote the line that made you wonder.

I already did friend.

I guess it's what I get for trying to find some honest middle ground... some compromise where we might find the best management tool for growing big smallmouth. I don't believe resource management are your true motives. When good folk like Al extend a hand for compromise and for discovery, and I hear you over his shoulder spouting your nonsense, I'm suspicious of the whole lot of ya.

I mean calling a bear up with a leg of chicken and then blasting it in the head seems sporting enough to me. :D

JS

Yep, it's that easy. Since you are not shy about having opinions of subjects you obviously know nothing about, please share with us your enlightened thoughts on the fox hunting question... or hunting in general?

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