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Newbie Question....How much Tippet?


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I now use a nail knot coated in Flex-Seal to keep it completely dry.

Brian, have you given up on the Needle Knot?

Today's release is tomorrows gift to another fisherman.

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To me that makes it easy to change leaders. Therefore would the same principle apply to leader to tippet connections as well?

I know it's easier to change the leader, but I don't change leaders to often on a given trip. I will choose a leader to fit the conditions, and fish 1-2 size smaller tippet about 18" - 24" in length. I personally don't like the bulk of loop to loop connections. The loop to loop will have more drag on the water, and pick up more debris than a smaller profile connection. I want the small tippet to break when snagged to avoid replacing the leader.

" Too many hobbies to work" - "Must work to eat and play"

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OK you guys, l am going to blow away many of the so called, Ways to do it.

After a lifetime at this game, dealing with clients all over the world and so on it amounts to this in my book.

And l will give you food for thought here.

With a very few exceptions l do not use tapered leaders. You may well read that they are essential for perfect turnover.

l am not going to spend a great deal of time building all manner of leader configurations from short sections of mono.

I do not use furled leaders either, they are a expensive waste of time and are a modern concept produced with mono intead of gut, which was only available in short lengths to start with, like wise horse hair leader, if you wish to consider that also.

There are very few circumstances that you need , what is termed as perfect turnover or what l term as a precision placement of the fly.

Nymph fishing and streamer fishing are of course sunk fly methods. There is not need to be 100% accurate when fishing this way, but saying that you can get real close. But regardless of what ever configuration you use if you are not able to make the cast it will not happen.

The perfect casting scenario is that when the fly lands, it is at a time when all energy transmitted is exhausted.

If you do not apply it, it will not work, and if you apply to much energy you will get kick back, and may be tailing loops.

It is very possible to add 6x to 10lb bs and l will tell you how.

For dry line work l will not use braided loops, for many reasons. They are made from nylon and it sinks. It causes the tip of the fly line to sink, that will spook fish at times. It causes heavy line tip slap down and so on.

A braided loop to a 3wt line is not condusive.

Neither will l use a loop to loop connection as that also causes problems.

It may make life easy to add a leader l accept that, but it is not my way.

I have a fixed butt section that is made from. 3ft of 20 and 2ft of 15 bs Amnesia, red or green it doe's not matter. 5ft total, that leaves 4 ft to 9ft which is the standard length for a leader.

To that my set up for the fishing is added.

The 20lb AM is fixed to the fly line with the Whitlock no knot system. It is without a doung in my book the best way of avoing tip end snarl ups.

It will last a entire season.

I may have reservations for using that when fishing for large saltwater species, saying that l have nailed some big Redds and many small tarpon with its use. Oh, many big Browns also.

There are two options here. The first is to add to the end of the 15 AM a tiny tippet ring. The second is to add a simple overhand knot.

This is your stop knot.

And that is the means that you can go from 15bs to 6x. You simply tie you 6x above the 15 and slide it down to the knot.

You can by the way also do same for any other mono to mono. Tie a over hand knot to the 5x and tie above that 6x, slide it down to the knot. You avoid here a knot connection as such.

I do favor by the way a surgeons knot, but l use 3 turns not two.

Amnesia by the way is shooting head backing line. It is oval and not round and due to that it will not twist, and it will turn over way better than most leaders off the shelf.

From the tippet ring or the stop knot you can add as you wish.

I do not taper as such nymph leaders for many reasons. Fine diameter line allows less weight to be added to cause a fly to sink fast.

What l will do is to add by a straight length say 4 or 5 ft of 4/5/6x depending on what l wish to use, related to fly size, depth and speed of the water.

There may be a few time that l will add say 2/3ft of 4x and drop to 6x. most times here it is when l am not using as such a strike indicator.

You must also consider what filament you are using. FC sinks app 4 times faster that regular mono and copolymer is the slowest of the 3 filaments out there. There may be some difference for mono FC coated by the way.

So in respect of that l choose also the filament for the fishing situation at the time.

In the case of fishing streamers, same also, no need for tapered leaders. The fly when cast on the water and when stripped by you will straigten out the system.

My midge and emerger fishing is done by the same means with the AM.

This is the systems l use for all my clients. It has many advantages. If you do make a big screw up you can easily see what is AM and what is the added. Most times with clients l will not mess around tyring to sort the mess out. I cut it off and re rig, way quicker most times.

One good tip here. Something l see all the time. If you screw teh rig up. Cut the fly off first. It is way easier to deal with when the hook is removed.

That l can assue you .

So far as placement of indicators as such. For very high water they will be attached to the AM, some place within the 15bs, for lower water situations l use only yarn and that will go on to added mono below the 15 at the determined point l wish for depth and drift of that fly.

My wet traditional style wet fly rigs do differ here by the way, and that is because l may be using as many as 3 flies on leader set ups 12 to 15ft long.

Here again, they are not as such of a tapered configuration.

Any questions here guys fire away.

Bottom line is this. I have learnt in the past 48 years of fly fishing how to find the least complicated way of setting up rigs. It is the fly that the fish takes. It is you that place the fly in the right place, and if, and when needed, fish it in the right manner.

A fish has no concern with the tackle that you use or how you have rigged it up.

What matters to me is the fly or flies that l use and how l will present that fly or flies to the fishes eye.

Given the rods and lines tah l use to get it there and deal with hooked fish.

In many respects there is way too much BS taked about in this game.

If it were that difficult many would go home fishless.

Davy.

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While I agree with many of the things you say one thing that I have found is that you can not say that one thing works everywere you fish. I guided for many years and most of it was on tailwaters and spring creeks here in the west. I believe in tapered leaders and have tied my own for many years. I also think that for aobut 90 percent of your fishing one style of tapered leader is all that is needed. That being a 10' 4x. With the taper at 4x I can add to it and get it down to 6x or even7x with ease or I can leave it at 4x or go to 3x or even 0x for fishing larger streamers and such. It works well for me.

One thing that I have found is that people like to play with there tackle and talk about it. That is a big part of fly fishing. Just having fun trying new things and playing with there tackle.

I have been at this game almost as long as you including guiding and I find that it is great fun trying new things out even if I don't end up using them. Like I said it is fun just to play with new ideas. Ron

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OK... so questions for the two of you - Davy and MTM...

1. What is the "reasoning" behind the tapered leader? In effect, why not just tie a 12 ft length of ?X tippet material directly to the fly line or why not use a 9 ft length of 4 lb mono (good ol' stren or similar) then 18-24 inches of tippet?

2. Davy - AM = Amnesia line, FC = Flourocarbon, but what is the "bs" you refer to when you said "you can tie 6X to 10 lb bs..."

3. MTM - What is the "formula" you use for the 4X tapered leader you refer to? And what knot do you prefer for tying the sections together?

As a "bait fisherman" for the first 40 years of my life, the concept of leaders will intrigue me for a while to come...

I'm sure I'll have more questions... huh, Davy? :lol:

Thanks....

TIGHT LINES, YA'LL

 

"There he stands, draped in more equipment than a telephone lineman, trying to outwit an organism with a brain no bigger than a breadcrumb, and getting licked in the process." - Paul O’Neil

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Ron, hi there,

Thanks for your reply here.

I did say here with few exception, and yes if there is a need to refine if you like the systems l use it will in the case of a dry line when fishing the smaller spring creek scenarios. Then as a rule l will have a littel more definition in the way l set up as such my leader systems.

For years l fished also the chalk streams back in my homelands. Rivers like the Test, Itchen, Kennet, along with the free stone rivers, lakes and resevoirs.

You are here dealing with some of the most difficult fish you will find any place else l have fished around the world.

Those fish on the San Juan are way esier by comparison.

From that experience l learned one thing, never let the fish know you are there. There were two essential elements here.

The first being as l said not to let the fish know your presence the second making the right presentattion to that fish with the fly used, be it nymph, or dry etc.

That also included extending over all length of your leader way more than 9ft at times. I still over all favour that practice if the surroundings allow that. Close qtr fishing in a confined space may not allow that, but then such systems differ from the wider more open water scenarios.

Interesting also that you thoughts are for one choice of leader as such, which is more or less my way, but with the system as such l use for that purpose.

I did forget to add also to my post that the use of the Amnesia also allows for me to see below the water surface the relative angle of direction and hang, my fly is at, also as l do not always use indicators as such, that allows me a high visual for take detecting with regular flat surface drift of high stick, or rolled nymph techniques.

I will grease the AM as a rule here.

I may also remove the 2ft section of 15 and go from there with my added section of leader, not often.

I was recently in MT for a few weeks and showed many guide friends there my ways, as you may know most of the time there a very typical way in which rigs are used for drift floats etc.

I convinced some of those guys that to have as such a permanent 5ft butt section and to add on for additonal was way more easy that having to chop and change leaders entire as such.

I had some great times there fishing the Madison, Yellowstone and the lakes.

I do wish that they did produce the AM in 10lb as 15 is the lowest, l might then change from the two section set up to 3. 20/15/10.

Yes, l agree that a large part of fly fishing fun is talking about the products.

When l owned the SLF dubing co, l also was a distributor for both US and EU products around the world. You would not believe some of the things that were sent to me as being considered by the innovators the answer to catching more fish, they defied logic at times.

But, if anthing l am very happy that we do have mono and modern fly lines, and no longer silk and gut.

Davy.

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Terry.

Am is mono and not FC. I would not choose to use FC for this purpose, about the only times l use FC from the fly line is for streamer fishing and when l make up my configurations for wet fly techniques, as l wish here for the entire system of mono and flies to be sunk, unless l am using say very small flies, wets or soft hackles that l wish to remain in the meniscus.

As a rule you do not want to use FC leaders for nymph,or surface fishing. It sinks and will not allow for effective drift control.

Sunk line above a indicator, be that mono or fly line aggrivates effective mending,and inhibits faster hook sets particularly when fishing at depth.

You have to drag the line through the water and not off if it.

I would not be without mucilin, that is my means to maintain high float of the fly line and leader section on the surface and not below it.

There are other products out there, but as yet l have not found one that is as good, as they are way too viscous. Mucilin when subject to cold water will solidify.

As a rule you would add the section of FC to the leader as such. In essence it is only that below a indicator that matters, or tp allow for the fly to fish well below the surface as such, without indicator use, such as fishing with soft hackles and caddis emergers etc.

The reason why you would not go from the fly line direct to say 6x is this. You do need a transition that energy transmitted from the cast will track, and with a long section of 6x that will not happen unless the wind is in your favor to blow it out.

You do need some sort of medium that will allow for transition for a turnover as such, and that is achived by graduations from the fly line to the fly.

And your imput by way of the energy for the cast made as such.

You would almost alwasys by doing this court some serious tangles. Fly line to 6x.

I will by the way go from the fly line with at times 4lb BS when fishing 3 fly wets fly methods. Here it is not so much a x factor with the mono, it is the diameter relationship for the size of the flies used.

Obtain my DVD Terry for Wet Fly Ways, as that will also show you how l set those rig systems up.

Even long extended leader configurations do need some step down process as such.

The basis of my way is essentially that, 5ft and then down.

I used to spend a great deal of time as you know casting, be that distance or accuracy. In the case of the latter l would mess around with configurations for the perfect turnover as such. Much of the skill for achieving perfect turover is related to how you provide the energy, and the direction of your presentation.

Add to that the weight and size of the fly used at that time.

As that is also a important consideration here. The same in a fishing scenario.

A size 22 midge will differ from a size 12 elk hair caddis, or a bead head nymph. They all require a different set up, and as a rule that would be the diameter of the mono you are using at that time, and how your configuration from fly line to leader to fly is formed.

So can l turn say a small midge over in a straight line from the 15BS AM, yes.

but l would not wish for such a fly to be in a direct straight taught line from my leader as such, l would require a softer more slack connection to a fly like that as l would require zero or any chance of drag, and a small fly like that will be influenced by very small amounts of drag even with 7 or 8x line.

But l also would require at least some sort of known direction when l made the presentation so l know the location of the fly from the get go.

It is harder the !! to look for a tiny fly like that if you did not see it land on the water surface.

As a rule l here you would be fishing at close ranges and not 60ft away, but that is well possible when fishing on lakes and stillwaters.

Got to get for now,

Davy.

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I have never liked conventional tapered mono leaders with one reason being they are just to stiff. I hate having to straighten them each time out or several times while on the stream. For that reason I switched to the Cabelas and Airflow mono Poly leaders. These are very suptle and have very little memory. I use the 5 ft. sections then add just the amount of tippet that I feel I need for the given fishing siuation. This method has worked for me whether dry or wet fly fishing.

I do use the loop to loop connection to about 12 inches of amnesia butt to the fly line. The tippet is also attached to the poly leader with a loop to loop. I also have some of the sinking poly leaders that work great for getting a fly down during higher water.

Dano

Glass Has Class

"from the laid back lane in the Arkansas Ozarks"

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Terry the thinking behind a tapered leader is that it transfers the power of the rod down to the fly helping the leader and fly turn over.

As for the formula on the leader I use. I will have to measure it for you and it may take me a day or so to get to it. I have not made any because of all the surgery and things that have gone on in the last year or so. But I will get it to you in a bit.

Davey- We have a lot of things in common. I use at least a two foot butt section on my leaders. I in fact at times use a very long leader up to 15 foot. I have found at times a tippet section of 4 or 5 feet can make a big difference in what you catch.

I have taught people for many years how to know were the fly is at all times no matter it's size. I fish down and across to the fish when ever possible. I will cast the fly about 3 feet above and past the fish I am fishing to. I then lift my rods tip stright up into the air. This causes the fly to skate on the surface and you can see were it is. I drag the fly into the line of drift I want it in and drop the rods tip and throw slack into the line. In doing it this way you will always know were your fly is. You may not see it but it will always be at the point of the "V" you make when you drag the fly into position. Takes more to tell this than it does to do it. It works and older people with bad eyes even know were there fly is when doing it this way. If done right you will not spook any fish. Been doing this for over 30 years or and it works.

As for leaders and strighting them. I find it is real easy to do. I just pull them between my hands. Takes about 30 seconds. We all have ways of doing things that fit each of us. It is fun to try others ideas and use what we find we like. Ron

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Ron,

Could not agree more with you so far as using a more across to down stream presentation for small surface fished flies and emergers, not only will it allow for you to get right in line for the drift but it way lessons if you do it right the fish having sight of the tippet, as l know for a fact at times that will cause refusals to the fly.

The only downside is drawinf teh fly away from they take, as you know you have to control how you do set the hook by this means.

No doubt in my mind at all that longer sections of added line in finer x factors will greatly enhance takes from fish. So far as dry, emerger and nymph fishing.

For the best part l think that 9ft leaders with shorter sections of added TP lesson takes, and way more so in conditions of slower flat water situations.

I know that for a fact is the case here at BSD when we have low water and the fish are taking dry and emerger midge.

Those guys wil spook for either sight of or surface dusturbance caused by the fly line, as well as any shadow caused by that fly line on the bed of the river.

Leader and tippet will of course do same if the relative angle of the sun is against you.

Not sure what your thoughts are so far as fly line color is concerned. It makes no difference to me other than l prefer white or at least a more natural shade, not because l believe that fish can determine line color by the way. I dislike HI vis lines, only because they mesmorize your eyes to that optical point.

Any fly line will block light from passsing through it, that in turn will cause a shadow to be cast in given conditions of adverse light direction.

I tell clients that one of the reasons you use leaders and tippets is to provide a relative distance from the fly line to the fly as the fly line should not be cast at or seen by the fish to start with.

Have a great day.

DW

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