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Old Stumbler

Danger at Table Rock Dam

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All I said was those 3 people on the tailwater side of TRD were no threat. I didn't say there is no threat. Blowing a dam like TRD is not a simple feat, folks. This I KNOW. A truck bomb in the parking lot wouldn't do it. About that much high-grade demolition explosives in the right place WOULD. But the parking lot isn't it and a few scuba divers operating in broad daylight would be pretty obvious due to the amount and type of ordnance they would have to place properly to do it. And folks with those skills and access to those munitions are actually being monitored pretty closely...but not by the USACE!

The Murrow building changed a lot of things and 9/11 changed a whole lot more. Just because you don't SEE counter-terrorist security measures does not mean they do not exist. As a matter of fact, if you DID see most of it, it wouldn't work very well...in the context of a free and open society.

But here's the really big question I had in MY mind when I read these posts:

If you see something you consider threatening or suspicious, why...after all that has happened and all we have been told...do you not call 9-1-1 and report it? THAT is the first line of defense. If we sit around and wait for the big boom to see if our suspicions were correct, the first line of defense...the most important line of defense...has been neutralized. Obviously, in spite of the rhetoric here, the posters instinctively knew what they saw was not a threat. Either that or they were secretly hoping to see a catastrophe...which I want to doubt.

FYI, there is tons of good, authoritative info on the Internet about these threats and about para-military and military demolition and munitions. If you want to be informed as to what a REAL threat would entail, it's there for you to educate yourself about. But here's the bottom line: in a free society, if someone really wants to commit an act of terrorism or mayhem, they CAN. The BEST way to prevent it is for the citizens to be informed and observant, and to notify the authorities the MINUTE their alarm bells go off. There is no criminal or civil penalty for being WRONG about such a thing...unless you're doing it repeatedly and on purpose, in which case YOU would be a terrorist.

FYI, Powersite would be relatively EASY. But the damage would be next to zero...comparatively speaking.

One more thing, do you really think that with all the fishermen running around with Aquaview cameras on their bass boats that the gov't hasn't employed some pretty cheap and effective technology to monitor high risk targets? I was a surveillance and comms expert in counter-terrorism for the US gov't in the 1990s. I was operating against Al Qaeda when most Americans had never heard of them. The gov't does a LOT that we don't know about. They even did a lot that I didn't know about...as I occassionally discovered accidentally. But the gov't cannot do too much to protect us from ourselves without getting in serious trouble. Thus, Tim McVeigh and the Murrow building.

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Do we need more security? Sure. But are we willing to pay for it? I'm not just talking taxes, but have you flown lately? Yes, I want to feel secure on an airplane, but if I have to go through things like that to go fishing, launch a boat, take a class, shop at the mall, etc...

Want a big impact? How secure is Silver Dollar City? Your workplace? The mall? Your school? Major trafficways? Sports arenas?

My point is that we are starting to "live in fear" because of the media attention. To me that's falling into the hands of those who do these things. That's what they want. I can't see myself doing that.

You are correct that the plan would be to blow up 50 dams and not just one. The problem is that providing security enough to have any chance to prevent such action would result in a shutting down of many of the things we take for granted, if it was even possible.

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But here's the really big question I had in MY mind when I read these posts:

If you see something you consider threatening or suspicious, why...after all that has happened and all we have been told...do you not call 9-1-1 and report it? THAT is the first line of defense. If we sit around and wait for the big boom to see if our suspicions were correct, the first line of defense...the most important line of defense...has been neutralized. Obviously, in spite of the rhetoric here, the posters instinctively knew what they saw was not a threat. Either that or they were secretly hoping to see a catastrophe...which I want to doubt.

Sure, I agree that's true if you SEE it.

FYI, Powersite would be relatively EASY. But the damage would be next to zero...comparatively speaking.

You are entirely correct. Compared to TRD the impact would be less, but next to nothing? If Powersite Dam went, River Run Campground, Shawdow Rock, 76 Bridge would all be under water in a matter of 5 minutes. I guess if you consider that zero damage then you would be right.

If TRD went, in a matter of minutes every camp ground, resort and Branson Landing would be under water. Let's not think about the lives impacted by that.

Terry,

No one is suggesting we shut down fishing around TRD. Only suggesting we have a little common sense security in place. If memory serves me correct we already have security at SDC, Security at shopping malls, security at my place of employment, security at sports arenas. I don't know how 3 security agents at TRD is going to affect your fishing? Shouldn't affect it any, only identify potential threats when and if they exist. I'm with you, I'd go fishing there tomorrow if I could. Just like I go to SDC and the other Venues you mentioned. Silver Mallard is suggesting that maybe they do have undercover surveliance, maybe they do, heck I'm not sure what surveliance they have at TRD, and if they do it's not visible to the public. Divers by the dam, any and all traffic is permitted over the dam, etc. Just leaves it open as an easy target. All I am suggesting.

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If we (people like us on OAC) watch our own backyard. We should be able to keep from having happings like we've had in our country. This type of discussion is a great way to start figureing out the best way to take care of what we have been blessed with. Until the corps hears and see's our conserns nothing will be done until it's too late. Keep your eyes up and be aware of your surroundings.

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Paranoia is an interesting word. I, myself refuse to live in fear of anyone. And I especially will not live in fear of a bunch of low lives like al-Queida. There was a famous speech where the speaker said "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." I may or may-not have agree'd with his politics but I sure agree with that statement.

We, Americans, have no reason to live in fear. We have no reason to give up our rights and freedom. We are more than capable of protecting our country against the likes of Bin Laden. The real problem we need to focus on is propaganda. There are some who tell us we are not capable of winning this war against terrorism. Do we believe them? Do we try to run and hide with the terrorists barking at our heels? I think for those who do believe the propagandists, living in fear is a reality and for those of us who refuse to believe we cant win and who refuse to live in fear of terrorism the propaganda just like the terrorists is another issue that has to be dealt with.

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It would be difficult to blow a dam like TR from the base. I would imagine that the terrorist know that they will be lucky to get one shot at any type of target, so I'm sure they would want something with more overall value than TR. They're very protective of Hoover, but theres a lot of population below it and much of southern California depends on the power.

I don't know how much Powersite would raise BS if it were breeched, but I doubt it would be much over a foot by the time it was through. It only produces 1% of Empire's output, so that wouldn't be much of a loss. It wouldn't even be good practice. :lol:

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I think we are starting to get side tracked from the original idea that it is just pretty easy to gain close acess to these damns. Putting up a fence would help, these are not giant cost involving items. As for powersite darn failing not doing much damage? Ask the people in south east Missouri what a break in the darn at taum sauk caused. Ask ameron how much money they have spent cleaning up a rural area with only one house effected by the flood at taum sauk, try going to johnson shut inns and looking at the damage, oh yea you can't because over a year later the park still is not opened back up.

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