Larry Dablemont Article

[MoCarp]

56 minutes ago, Ryan Miloshewski said:

He 100% made up the CWD stats. There is no proof, ever, anywhere, in any scientific literature CWD has been transferred to humans by eating venison. He claims 75 people died from ingesting CWD contaminated meat in Colorado. Will it eventually be able to transfer from deer to humans? Maybe. Heck, even probably. But right now it doesn't. And that is an absolute fact. I've had lengthy talks with Dr. Kelly Straka, a widllife veterinarian, around this.

Which, in and of itself, contradicts himself. Because he vehemently complains about the MDC wanting to have the CWD management zones, and the thinning out of deer in certain areas. So he says people are dying of CWD but says the MDC is way out of line for trying to contain it. Which is it, Larry?? He can't even keep his stories straight.

just because we have no record doesn't mean its not out there, misidentifying something happens in medicine  and has for a very long time, I have heard that some cases of alzheimer's may and I say MAY have been attributed to reutzfeldt-Jakob disease....as far as numbers Nationally, there also has been an increase in cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob. In 2002, there were 260 cases, compared with 481 in 2015, an 85% increase, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. so something is going on or is it we are now looking for it? like I said...its like playing Russian roulette....

[fishinwrench]

Right?   

All that sunscreen y'all are rubbing on yourself will eventually be determined to do more harm than good.   Same with thyroid medicine and anti-depressants.

Marijuana and cocaine are probably the only truly helpful drugs, and they are both illegal.   Any country that promotes alcohol consumption but bans everything else simply can't be trusted.  

[Ryan Miloshewski]

31 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

just because we have no record doesn't mean its not out there, misidentifying something happens in medicine  and has for a very long time, I have heard that some cases of alzheimer's may and I say MAY have been attributed to reutzfeldt-Jakob disease....as far as numbers Nationally, there also has been an increase in cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob. In 2002, there were 260 cases, compared with 481 in 2015, an 85% increase, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. so something is going on or is it we are now looking for it? like I said...its like playing Russian roulette....

Very well could be we are paying more attention to it. Hard to say. I'd be interested to see the individual cases (i.e. were they hunters?). Until there is a 100% confirmed case you can't say CWD caused it, though. The increase could be due to hundreds of factors---increase in human population, more overall meat consumption, evolution of C-J to increase its symptoms/fatality rates, etc. He still made up the statistics and STILL contradicts himself by saying we should be deathly worried about it but at the same time do nothing. Makes ZERO sense. 

I'm not going to eat a CWD infected deer, but I also won't stand for somebody blatantly lying to his readership. That's unethical. 

[fishinwrench]

21 minutes ago, Ryan Miloshewski said:

Very well could be we are paying more attention to it. Hard to say. I'd be interested to see the individual cases (i.e. were they hunters?). Until there is a 100% confirmed case you can't say CWD caused it, though. The increase could be due to hundreds of factors---increase in human population, more overall meat consumption, evolution of C-J to increase its symptoms/fatality rates, etc. He still made up the statistics and STILL contradicts himself by saying we should be deathly worried about it but at the same time do nothing. Makes ZERO sense. 

I'm not going to eat a CWD infected deer, but I also won't stand for somebody blatantly lying to his readership. That's unethical. 

Email him and ask where he got that information.   He might be able to back it up, ya never know.  

Better yet invite him over here !   How fun would that be?

[snagged in outlet 3]

I'm surprised he hasn't shown up on here.  Deer aren't good enough to eat let alone with the CWD dealio.

[MOPanfisher]

1 hour ago, MoCarp said:

just because we have no record doesn't mean its not out there, misidentifying something happens in medicine  and has for a very long time, I have heard that some cases of alzheimer's may and I say MAY have been attributed to reutzfeldt-Jakob disease....as far as numbers Nationally, there also has been an increase in cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob. In 2002, there were 260 cases, compared with 481 in 2015, an 85% increase, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. so something is going on or is it we are now looking for it? like I said...its like playing Russian roulette....

There are also more cases of most diseases which are attributed to many things, primarily better diagnosis and higher level of medical care.  I may agree somewhat with FW on some issues here, some sun is good for the body overdosing on sun or pretty much anything is not healthy.

[Johnsfolly]

2 hours ago, MoCarp said:

just because we have no record doesn't mean its not out there, misidentifying something happens in medicine  and has for a very long time, I have heard that some cases of alzheimer's may and I say MAY have been attributed to reutzfeldt-Jakob disease....as far as numbers Nationally, there also has been an increase in cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob. In 2002, there were 260 cases, compared with 481 in 2015, an 85% increase, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. so something is going on or is it we are now looking for it? like I said...its like playing Russian roulette....

Here is the statement from the CDC on the occurrence of CJD.

Classic CJD has been recognized since the early 1920s. The most common form of classic CJD is believed to occur sporadically, caused by the spontaneous transformation of normal prion proteins into abnormal prions. This sporadic disease occurs worldwide, including the United States, at a rate of  roughly 1 to 1.5 cases per 1 million population per year, although rates of up to two cases per million are not unusual. The risk of CJD increases with age, and in persons aged over 50 years of age, the annual rate is approximately 3.4 cases per million.

Whereas the majority of cases of CJD (about 85%) occur as sporadic disease, a smaller proportion of patients (5-15%) develop CJD because of inherited mutations of the prion protein gene. These inherited forms include Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker syndrome and fatal familial insomnia.

CJD is different from variant or new-variant CJD - If chronic wasting disease jumped from cervids to humans it would likely be in the form of vCJD or nvCJD. That is the assumption based upon the relationship between bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) and vCJD/nvCJD.

Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) is a prion disease(https://www.cdc.gov/prions/index.html) that was first described in 1996 in the United Kingdom. There is now strong scientific evidence that the agent responsible for the outbreak of prion disease in cows, bovine spongiform encephalopathy(https://www.cdc.gov/prions/bse/about.html) (BSE or 'mad cow' disease), is the same agent responsible for the outbreak of vCJD in humans.

There have been cases of vCJD in the US as reported by the CDC

Four cases of vCJD have been reported from the United States. By convention, variant CJD cases are ascribed to the country of initial symptom onset, regardless of where the exposure occurred. There is strong evidence that suggests that two of the four cases were exposed to the BSE agent in the United Kingdom and that the third was exposed while living in Saudi Arabia. The specific overseas country where the fourth patient’s infection occurred is less clear.

The first patient was born in the United Kingdom in the late 1970’s and lived there until a move to Florida in 1992. The patient had onset of symptoms in November 2001 and died in June of 2004. The patient never donated or received blood, plasma, or organs, never received human growth hormone, nor did the patient ever have major surgery other than having wisdom teeth extracted in 2001. Additionally, there was no family history of CJD.

The second patient resided in Texas during 2001-2005. Symptoms began in early 2005 while the patient was in Texas. He then returned to the United Kingdom, where his illness progressed, and a diagnosis of variant CJD was made. The diagnosis was confirmed neuropathologically at the time of the patient’s death. While living in the United States, the patient had no history of hospitalization, of having invasive medical procedures, or of donation or receipt of blood and blood products. The patient almost certainly acquired the disease in the United Kingdom. He was born in the United Kingdom and lived there throughout the defined period of risk (1980-1996) for human exposure to the agent of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE, commonly known as “mad cow” disease). His stay in the United States was too brief relative to what is known about the incubation period for variant CJD.

The third patient was born and raised in Saudi Arabia and has lived in the United States since late 2005. The patient occasionally stayed in the United States for up to 3 months at a time since 2001 and there was a shorter visit in 1989. The patient’s onset of symptoms occurred in Spring 2006. In late November 2006, the Clinical Prion Research Team at the University of California San Francisco Memory and Aging Center confirmed the vCJD clinical diagnosis by pathologic study of adenoid and brain biopsy tissues. The patient has no history of receipt of blood, a past neurosurgical procedure, or residing in or visiting countries of Europe. Based on the patient’s history, the occurrence of a previously reported Saudi case of vCJD attributed to likely consumption of BSE-contaminated cattle products in Saudi Arabia, and the expected greater than 7 year incubation period for food-related vCJD, this U.S. case-patient was most likely infected from contaminated cattle products consumed as a child when living in Saudi Arabia (1). The patient has no history of donating blood and the public health investigation has identified no known risk of transmission to U.S. residents from this patient.

The fourth patient was a US citizen born outside of the United States. The investigation by CDC and the Texas Department of State Health Services indicated that the patient’s exposure to the BSE/vCJD agent most likely occurred before he moved to the United States; the patient had resided in Kuwait, Russia and Lebanon. The completed investigation did not support the patient’s having had extended travel to European countries, including the United Kingdom, or travel to Saudi Arabia. The specific overseas country where this patient’s infection occurred is less clear than those for the 3 previously reported US cases largely because the investigation did not definitely link him to a country where other known vCJD cases likely had been infected. The patent’s illness first manifested in late 2012 and death occurred 18 months later. The vCJD diagnosis was confirmed on the basis of a biochemical analysis of a urine sample collected late in the patient’s illness and by histopathologic examination of brain tissue obtained at autopsy.

So eating deer may be like Russian roulette but with a gun with well over several million empty chambers. That would be further reduced for those like myself that process our own deer and stay away from brain or spinal tissues during the meat handling.

 

[SpoonDog]

2 hours ago, MoCarp said:

just because we have no record doesn't mean its not out there,

Dablemont Isn't claiming we've never detected CWD in humans, MOCarp.  He's claiming we have.  No amount of mental gymnastics makes that an accurate claim.

 

If we haven't read Dablemont's writing on CWD, and we haven't read up on CWD, yet despite that total lack of information we're convinced Dablemont has some important point we're supposed to take seriously- that's the definition of blind faith. If we aren't worried about CWD because an aging rock star who spent a week pooping his pants to avoid Vietnam  and has a financial interest in selling hunting gear says not to worry- maybe we could hone our skills at evaluating incoming information.  If we're worried about herd mentality, let's exercise a little independent thought.

All I'm saying is allegations should have some basis in fact.  Like I said I'm no journalist, but it took no meaningful effort to track down an MDC audit from earlier in July.  Two minutes and a Google search.  The independent auditor found the department was well managed but still raised some issues: meal expenditures, the way contracts and grants are handled, issues with sunshine requests and agency transparency.    If I'm angry about anything it's that folks like Dablemont and his readers shine the spotlight away from evidence-based criticisms like these toward baseless, mindless conspiracies.

The idea state game and fish agencies would concoct a disease which threatens to reduce the number of hunting permits sold is idiotic.  It makes no sense.  If you could fabricate any disease, you wouldn't pick one that undermines your own interest.  The idea state fish and game agencies went hat-in-hand to health departments and medical researchers and asked them to hide evidence of CWD in people- to forgo millions of dollars in research funding. Those cigarette ads only worked because tobacco companies were willing to pay doctors, fellas.  Dablemont's conspiracy requires believing that instead of saving thousands and making a million bucks in the process, they're gonna give up the cash and let them all die.  Maybe I'm missing something, but if you accept money's a powerful motivator you can appreciate this theory makes no sense.  If relying on the expertise of others isn't enough, fine.  Just think it through. 

And finally, if Larry and his readers aren't interested in a serious, intellectually honest discussion, then IMO there isn't any point in MDC engaging him.  They're in different businesses, and a state agency pointing out the idiocy of a single guy only serves to reinforce the nonsensical David and Goliath narrative he's putting out there.  It provides an example of "The Man" keeping him down.  There's zero benefit to MDC, which is why I completely understand they don't do it.  To me it's as much a waste of time and money and resources as atlatls or kid's archery or ranching paddlefish.  There are real issues with the way MDC spends some money and resources, I just think Larry's stated goals would be much better served if he spent more time focusing on those real issues than the ones he's ginned up. 

 

But as some point out he's a regional outdoor writer.  An author.  A story teller.  And I understand how stories of wide-ranging conspiracy and crooked agents and shadow committees is sexier and sells more subscriptions than detailed analysis of meal expenditures and clothing allowances. 

[MoCarp]

1 hour ago, Johnsfolly said:

Here is the statement from the CDC on the occurrence of CJD.

Classic CJD has been recognized since the early 1920s. The most common form of classic CJD is believed to occur sporadically, caused by the spontaneous transformation of normal prion proteins into abnormal prions. This sporadic disease occurs worldwide, including the United States, at a rate of  roughly 1 to 1.5 cases per 1 million population per year, although rates of up to two cases per million are not unusual. The risk of CJD increases with age, and in persons aged over 50 years of age, the annual rate is approximately 3.4 cases per million.

Whereas the majority of cases of CJD (about 85%) occur as sporadic disease, a smaller proportion of patients (5-15%) develop CJD because of inherited mutations of the prion protein gene. These inherited forms include Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker syndrome and fatal familial insomnia.

CJD is different from variant or new-variant CJD - If chronic wasting disease jumped from cervids to humans it would likely be in the form of vCJD or nvCJD. That is the assumption based upon the relationship between bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) and vCJD/nvCJD.

Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) is a prion disease(https://www.cdc.gov/prions/index.html) that was first described in 1996 in the United Kingdom. There is now strong scientific evidence that the agent responsible for the outbreak of prion disease in cows, bovine spongiform encephalopathy(https://www.cdc.gov/prions/bse/about.html) (BSE or 'mad cow' disease), is the same agent responsible for the outbreak of vCJD in humans.

There have been cases of vCJD in the US as reported by the CDC

Four cases of vCJD have been reported from the United States. By convention, variant CJD cases are ascribed to the country of initial symptom onset, regardless of where the exposure occurred. There is strong evidence that suggests that two of the four cases were exposed to the BSE agent in the United Kingdom and that the third was exposed while living in Saudi Arabia. The specific overseas country where the fourth patient’s infection occurred is less clear.

The first patient was born in the United Kingdom in the late 1970’s and lived there until a move to Florida in 1992. The patient had onset of symptoms in November 2001 and died in June of 2004. The patient never donated or received blood, plasma, or organs, never received human growth hormone, nor did the patient ever have major surgery other than having wisdom teeth extracted in 2001. Additionally, there was no family history of CJD.

The second patient resided in Texas during 2001-2005. Symptoms began in early 2005 while the patient was in Texas. He then returned to the United Kingdom, where his illness progressed, and a diagnosis of variant CJD was made. The diagnosis was confirmed neuropathologically at the time of the patient’s death. While living in the United States, the patient had no history of hospitalization, of having invasive medical procedures, or of donation or receipt of blood and blood products. The patient almost certainly acquired the disease in the United Kingdom. He was born in the United Kingdom and lived there throughout the defined period of risk (1980-1996) for human exposure to the agent of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE, commonly known as “mad cow” disease). His stay in the United States was too brief relative to what is known about the incubation period for variant CJD.

The third patient was born and raised in Saudi Arabia and has lived in the United States since late 2005. The patient occasionally stayed in the United States for up to 3 months at a time since 2001 and there was a shorter visit in 1989. The patient’s onset of symptoms occurred in Spring 2006. In late November 2006, the Clinical Prion Research Team at the University of California San Francisco Memory and Aging Center confirmed the vCJD clinical diagnosis by pathologic study of adenoid and brain biopsy tissues. The patient has no history of receipt of blood, a past neurosurgical procedure, or residing in or visiting countries of Europe. Based on the patient’s history, the occurrence of a previously reported Saudi case of vCJD attributed to likely consumption of BSE-contaminated cattle products in Saudi Arabia, and the expected greater than 7 year incubation period for food-related vCJD, this U.S. case-patient was most likely infected from contaminated cattle products consumed as a child when living in Saudi Arabia (1). The patient has no history of donating blood and the public health investigation has identified no known risk of transmission to U.S. residents from this patient.

The fourth patient was a US citizen born outside of the United States. The investigation by CDC and the Texas Department of State Health Services indicated that the patient’s exposure to the BSE/vCJD agent most likely occurred before he moved to the United States; the patient had resided in Kuwait, Russia and Lebanon. The completed investigation did not support the patient’s having had extended travel to European countries, including the United Kingdom, or travel to Saudi Arabia. The specific overseas country where this patient’s infection occurred is less clear than those for the 3 previously reported US cases largely because the investigation did not definitely link him to a country where other known vCJD cases likely had been infected. The patent’s illness first manifested in late 2012 and death occurred 18 months later. The vCJD diagnosis was confirmed on the basis of a biochemical analysis of a urine sample collected late in the patient’s illness and by histopathologic examination of brain tissue obtained at autopsy.

So eating deer may be like Russian roulette but with a gun with well over several million empty chambers. That would be further reduced for those like myself that process our own deer and stay away from brain or spinal tissues during the meat handling.

 

I find it interesting no mention of consumed venison or about the uptick in cases, IMHO I do not think we have even looked at it much yet and it will take more time to accumulate data...autopsy isn't something that is generally done even with dementia patients, never heard the term Early Onset Dementia until the 2000s and more data is correlated we won't see patterns, I remember all the while speculations in early HIV and until infected people started giving blood in efforts to infect people with less risky life styles...public went nuts for answers when people caught it from blood transfusions and people started to get there personal blood drawn because they blood banks good not be trusted and no reliable test existed at that time....

[MOPanfisher]

Yes it does take time to accumulate data, especially with something like CJD or even worse the vCJD, of which a total of 4 cases have been identified by the CDC in the US.  The information Johns folly posted shows that not only is CDC aware of it, they vigorously track down the background and life history of the person who contracts it.  Are there folks who slip through the cracks, likely so, but still the occurrence of vCJD is so low the data is very difficult to come by.  I will happily trust my life to the CDC research, he'll I have given my life over to Dr's once already.  Doesn't mean I will go out and eat every sick deer I find, heck even coyotes don't do that.  Where I am every deer killed gets tested for CWD so I am not overly concerned, even though I am in a hot spot for it.  Besides some of the best crappie fishing of the year happens about opening weekend of deer season.

Well heck, just looked at the mail and I have a post card from MDC telling me we are eligible for up to 5 additional deer harvest tags.  Hope my wife don't see it, will really cut into my fishing time.