Chief Grey Bear

Hey the Vanilla Ice just called. He said no Hillbilly White Cracker can say that!

I have to ask you because you said you support the bulk of what they do. What is it they do that you support? I don't either. There is not a reason or excuse for it. I agree the numbers of anglers does drop in the winter. And yes gigging is just getting started. But how can we be sure that some of these large fish are not harvested in the fall when the bigger fish can be even more susceptible to anglers? Fishing is still pretty hot up to and through deer season. But yeah I don't dismiss alot of what you say. But we don't have any numbers to confirm what impact gigging may or may not have on smallmouth numbers. But we do know is that from population surveys conducted on waters that are gigged, as I stated before, there has been no noticeable change in smallmouth population of any particular size group. I was messing wit ya. But I could also point out that in waters in which they are stocked, at least in the waters that I have fished for them, I have noticed a drop in the population of native game fish. I base that on the ease in which I can catch sizable numbers of said game fish in comparable streams in the same area. Ehhh, they are entertaining in the winter. I admit. I have to also admit that I haven't really fished for them for the last couple of years. But I am kinda getting a hankering to change that this year.

Which is what? Was that a little strong?? No I said both legal fishermen, that follow all fishing regs and illeagal fishermen that couldn't care less about fishing laws or the negitive impact that they cause. And yes they are saying otherwise and they have in this very thread. And that is my point. Very easy to understand. It is a pure numbers game with the law of averages against the fish population. Please don't think for a minute that meat hunting anglers put their rods away for the winter. The clear water makes it easier for them too. All you need is a 1/4 oz jig head and clear water. You can snag them in the gut or lip. All you need is a half way warm day. Its much easier to gig trout due to their habits. They cost a lot of money to produce. They make a lot of money. But I say gig'em anyway. They ain't supposed to be here anyway. Dang things are invasive!! But in truth, I answered that in the previous post.

No just growing tired of the lopsided vile hatred of the legal practice of gigging. It was anywhere near as bad as is said here, there wouldn't be a fish swimming. As I have said before, you loose far more fish to R&R fishermen than giggers. If we are going to continually point the finger at giggers, then we need some concrete evidence, not opinon. There is no proof, from MDC research, that smallmouth population, of any size, has been impacted by gigging in management areas.

The same MDC that you say does nothing, just had a big bust a couple of years ago. But I don't belive any smallmouth were involved. Just huge amounts of suckers.

Poaching is poaching no matter the method. Do you have absolute evidence that it was giggers and that it wasn't some rod and reelers pick your holes? Unless you were watching the giggers, I don't know how you could be posititive. Not saying it can't happen, or may not occasionaly happen, but to lay all the blame at giggers is without fact. Over the course of fishing season, there will be numerous fishermen hit any given stretch of water. Since we like assumptions here lets use this one. Lets say on these waters that you say are being stipped of large smallmouth it gets hit by 25 different fishermen over the course of the year. I think we can both agree that is a very conservitive number. Each person only needs to keep one large fish and you have now lost 25 of your large fish you blame soley on the giggers. And I don't know anyone that doesn't catch at least one good fish per trip. If you don't believe that R&R fishing both legal and illegal doesn't have a huge impact on fish, it is because you choose to not accpect it. I agree 1000%!!! You couldn't say it any better! And although I agree, I still cringe at the thought and site of it. And I know it also makes a healthier stream. How do you know they were already depressed? What are your baseline stats to confirm? Again it is always the giggers. Without any confirmation of fact, it is only opinion. The fact is, nobody knows. Well yeah, if any of us would have known then what we know now....that has been said for centuries. We all, well maybe not all, gain knowledge and experience as we get older. But how do you know you could have caught triple the numbers of bigger fish? Based on what? Do you know for sure there were triple the number of bigger fish? How do you know? Not opinion, fact.

I have never once said that there are not gamefish stuck. Of course there are. But you and your boys make it to be all giggers and you want gigging shut down completely. That is a fact. But after a little heat y'all come back with the "well not all giggers. There are some ethical giggers." Then it is always that giggers completely strip rivers of ever big smallmouth. Yet we all see post all year long of very nice fish coming from these same waters. Now if you think giggers are your biggest threat to the smallmouth, you are a bigger fool than you make yourself out to be. Legal and illegal harvest of smallmouth by rod and reel fisherman by far out weighs what illegal giggers are doing. But there is never a peep about that. And here is where you throw out the point, and it could have some validity, that a gigger could decimate every hole holding fish. I can see truth in that. But when we keep seeing reports and pics year after year of 17, 18, 19, and 20 inch fish, it's makes it difficult to believe the problem is as dire as you make out to be. Then we get the age old standard that the MDC is doing nothing about the smallmouth. Now we make a monicker about them being the MDconversation. Ha ha yuk yuk. Yet the fact is they have been doing research work on the smallmouth. Problem is,research takes time. You got your management sections for smallmouth. You got your White Paper report. You got your tagging research that is still on going. You got your creel survey. Yet we hear from Mitch that the MDC had done nothing for the last 15 years. The problem is the information that is being gained from this research is not what you wanted. So now I ask you. You and your posse are staunch supporters of the MSA. What has the MSA done for the smallmouth? Picked up some trash? Guest speaker at monthly meeting? Once a month fishing trip?

???

Yeah it's called poaching. It happens all year long with rod and reels all over the state. Some truth back at ya.

Of course you don't. You and your gang don't want to hear the truth, facts or opinions other than your own.

I think you may be confusing the MDC with the MSA.

Glorification? I don't think by simply including a story in the magazine is glorifying it. And when you state that it is not traditional because of upgrades in equipment, that would include all types if fishing. Jets and electronics immediately come to mind. And then we can get into tackle. As for the number of articles for stream fishing vs gigging, it is usually one each. But some years it is zero for gigging. You are more than welcome to submit articles for publication consideration on stream fishing. But I would think with all the complaints about river traffic, meat eaters, poachers and what not, you wouldn't like a lot if press on the subject.

Exactly Ronnie! I have caught numerous fish with mortal hook wounds. Ripped out lips, busted jaws, and some that are missing the Maxillary. So does that make C&R folks Dorks? Guess so.

Why are they dorks? Just because you don't like gigging?

How often do you float high traffic streams?

Exactly!! Just how many of you self righteous caretakers of all flowing waters were planning on taking the family floating on this stretch on this day in the first place? None. Just another 5+page rant on the OAF Bitch and Complain Board.

The investigation is not complete. But what we do know is there were two employees in each loco.

Yeah it does. But that is how capitalism works. So where were you two and kid wonder when they took the engineer out of the cab and stuck a remote control pack on the conductor that has never operated a locomotive?? Plus just so you two are aware, there will be very limited territory that this could even be done on even if it were to come about. Which is years away at best. This will only be in CTC territory that also has PTC. And as more info, all locos are currently equipped with alerters. If there has not been any contol movement by the engineer, ie, blowing horn, a service or independent brake application, dynamic braking operation or trottle movement in the last 30 to 60 seconds, depending on RR, an emergency application of the brakes will occur if the engineer fails to acknowledge the alerter.

Bull! If a sufficient amount of handbrakes had been applied, the train would have never moved! You show me where in the investigation it says that a sufficient amount of handbrakes were applied and the train still rolled away! Don't even to sell me that line of crap. Not only was I in train service for well over a decade, I used to investigate derailments also! Do you have any stats on how many lives have been saved from choking and heart attacks in the cab? NO! Look, I'll say it again, I am against this but don't try and blow smoke up the publics butt either. Who do you work for? From your posting you sound like a railfan not a rail!!!

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To say the tragedy in Quebec could have been avoided if a crew of two were on the train is disingenuous. The person in charge of that train did not follow the rules. He himself took a shortcut and did not properly secure the train. Well over 99% of railroad accidents are not human caused so to speak. There are relatively few accidents of trains running into one another causing devastation. Most are traced to track conditions, poor train handling or equipment failure. And it doesn't matter how many people you have on the train. There is not much difference between one person on a train and one person in a semi truck. Other than trains can't go just anywhere and they are not running up and down your freeways. But make no mistake, I am no fan of this either. It is the UTU and the BNSF that are going to force this. I really don't see it happening though.

No they are not wild. They are feral.

You have put it in a nutshell. People need to wake up to the fact of what is happening here and what it will result in. And where will it stop? This is opening a very dangerous door!

You are exactly right about the small group of special interest pushing this. And that is exactly why there was no vote. Had there been, it would have been soundly defeated. Are you saying for the record that the MDC intimidated the public with armed agents? And that Dept. of Ag was forced to publicly state that they did not want control because of MDC scare tactics? Cattle were domesticated thousands of years ago. They was never a wild population of cattle in the Western Hemisphere. Deer not so much. Big difference. Again you are right in that they are not to be released. But they do and they escape. But make no mistake, genetic manipulation is not the definition of livestock.

I don't think you fully understand just what is happening here. It has nothing to do with who is raising what but who is the controlling authority. The Republican controlled legislature want to take, against the will of the citizens of this state, the control away from the MDC, who also oppose, and give it to the Dept. Of Ag, who don't want it and have no idea what to do with it due to the fact they have no one with any knowledge of deer. Then you have the fact that this move is in direct violation of the Constitution of the State of Missouri. And we all know what we think of those that blatantly violate the Constitution. But oddly enough, there has not been so much as a peep when those with an R next to their name do it.