Kayak Fishing

[rps]

"Lets compare a tarpon 14 to a vagabond. The Tarpon is 14' long, 28" wide and weighs 68 lbs, the Vagabond is 14'6" long, 29.75" wide and weighs 45 lbs. So the Vagabond is longer, wider and 23 lbs lighter. Physics dictate that the Vagabond will displace less water, and will float in shallower water. Your Tarpon weighs one pound less than my 17 foot long, 36" wide Spirit II. I bet it is a bear to car top by yourself.

Also doesn't loading up a SOT with a lot of gear on the deck make it top heavy and therefore tippy? When I load up my canoe with ice chests, dry bags, camping gear, and my chair, it actually gets more stable because I can load everything down on the hull and give it a lower center of gravity."

Only if hull shape is identical. A deeper v or a pronounced rocker can alter the depth displaced in the water. Given an identical hull shape, the wider, lighter boat will displace less depth. But if one is wider and longer, then the hull shape is not identical by definition. The only accurate way, without using math that is way, way beyond me (and most people) is to load both boats with identical weights, tune the load arrangement, and then measure by having the boats clear the same depth obstacles. Until that is done, we have opinions, not facts.

Opinions are good.

[flytyer57]

Lets compare a tarpon 14 to a vagabond. The Tarpon is 14' long, 28" wide and weighs 68 lbs, the Vagabond is 14'6" long, 29.75" wide and weighs 45 lbs. So the Vagabond is longer, wider and 23 lbs lighter. Physics dictate that the Vagabond will displace less water, and will float in shallower water. Your Tarpon weighs one pound less than my 17 foot long, 36" wide Spirit II. I bet it is a bear to car top by yourself.

Also doesn't loading up a SOT with a lot of gear on the deck make it top heavy and therefore tippy? When I load up my canoe with ice chests, dry bags, camping gear, and my chair, it actually gets more stable because I can load everything down on the hull and give it a lower center of gravity.

The shape of the hull and how it displaces water has more importance to draft than weight. A flat bottom boat will have a shallower draft than a v-hull boat of the same size and weight. Think of a knife edge and something that has a flat surface. Both weigh the same and are about the same general length. The knife edge will cut through the surface tension of the water a lot faster than that flat surface. Displacement is the key here.

Yes, my Tarpon can be a real pain in the backside trying to put it up on my van by myself. Especially if it's windy. But I manage.

I imagine you are talking about lashing gear to the top of the yak up near the bow? I guess the first thing to do is load the tankwell and the in-hull storage area first. That will kinda balance everything out. And I really don't think I will ever try lashing a keg of beer to the front of my yak anyway. But a properly balanced load on a yak will act like just like a canoe. It will just give it a lower center of gravity.

[tjulianc]

Draft has to do with the volume of water that is being displaced and the weight of the object. The boat has to displace the same weight of water that is weighs. So a 45 lb canoe has to displace 45 lbs of water or 5.4 gallons of water. So if it is longer and/or wider it will float higher, because no matter what it still has to displace 45 lbs of water. That is why river jons are long wide and flat, to give them more area of water displacement. Hull design can help or hurt this, and a vee shaped hull would be worse than a shallow arch shaped hull, since the V would be a little deeper and catch rocks. The Tarpon appears to have a V shape in the bow and stern, which would be a disadvantage to draft, and concentrate wear and tear on one spot of the hull. My Vagabond is a shallow arch design and doesn't have a Vee shape, although the entry line in the bow is rather sharp.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I have a 12' Tarpon and a 13' solo and there are differences between them.

As far as loading and unloading, the solo is easier to get on top, but not a lot. The yak is easier to get to the water if you go any distance. It can also be easier to portage if I'm prepared.

I never carry more then 3 rods ready, so there is little advantage one way or another between the two. If I want to carry a rigged flyrod, the yak gets the edge, but I have to bank to get it.

The carrying capacity of the canoe is not necessarily all it seems. You have to be careful to not make it top heavy, but Goggle Eye doesn't plan on camping out of it, so the it's all mute.

As far as upstream paddling it's no contest between my craft, the yak takes a lot less effort. There are a couple of reasons for that, one the waterline is longer and two it once to maintain a track while the solo wants to react. overcoming the reaction of the solo takes energy and given the fact I'm the supplier of that energy the kayak is easier.

I own both, paddle both, and while your opinions might vary that is mine based on several years of use.

I'm not trying to get in the old yak versus canoe debate, but to address Goggle Eye's post.

[id10t]

Thanks for the great discussion. It appears my short list is Tarpon 120 or the Coosa! I am hoping to get out and test drive them in the next few months.

Al, if you were going to recommend a solo Canoe to try out what would it be?

Thanks again,

Joe

[/quo

A few more thoughts to cloud your mind.

As many have said there is no perfect boat. I have both Canoes and Kayaks. I choose which boat to use based on what my objective is for that trip. Canoes are by far the best all around in my opinion. If someone cant afford multiple boats a canoe is the most versatile option.

Canoes can be heavier and a little difficult to deal with in the wind etc but they can also carry a little gear or a lot. If you plan to do multi night river trips and camping you can't beat the canoe. It will hold all of your gear and for the most part keep you high and dry. If you plan to fish year round get a canoe. Again it is a mostly high and dry ride. It can make those winter and early spring, and late fall floats possible

.

I use my SOT in the spring, summer and early fall for day trips. When rods and a cooler is all I really need. A SOT is going to be a wet ride which is fine in warm weather but miserable when it is cool. Yes you can wear waders and bundle up but for me it is just to cumbersome for fishing. In the summer it is a great way to stay cool. The SOT is not very practical for multi day camping trips. If you don't have a SOT with hatches to get to inside of the boat all of your gear has to be strapped to the deck. If you strap it to the front it affects your ability to cast. If you strap it all to the back it causes the front of the boat to ride high.

I have a crossover in My Native Ultimate 14.5 which is a pretty good dual purpose boat. I cant put as much gear in it as I can my canoe but a lot more than I can on a SOT. It is not as deep as a canoe so it can be a little wet if you get in rough water. It is easy to maneuver and super stable.

Again if one boat is all I could afford or want I would get a canoe. While not perfect it will give you a year round platform.

[RSBreth]

To throw more wood on the fire...

Just remember that when everyone talks about paddling upstream - there's no law against using a double-bladed paddle from a solo canoe. I do it when I know there's a long fast stretch upstream where I can't "cheat" the current right by the shoreline eddies on either side of the river. Likewise - you can use a small single bladed paddle from a 'Yak to maneuver.

The canoe versus kayak debate can continue now...

[Wayne SW/MO]

[

Just remember that when everyone talks about paddling upstream - there's no law against using a double-bladed paddle from a solo canoe./quote]

That's all I use. It saves a lot of work in my opinion.

I'll give you a good example Goggle Eye. I can come up the west side of the second island from the 64 ramp. in my Tarpon, I can't in my solo.

[RSBreth]

So you don't use the double blade with your solo?

I can paddle up a couple of stretches of the lower James more easily using a single blade (in my solo canoe) than my 'Yak buddies can do it because they have to get out in the current more to use the double blade away from downed trees.

There's pro's and con's to both. Just depends on the water. Just don't think you can ONLY use a certain type of paddle for either type of boat.

[Wayne SW/MO]

The only single I have is a short one for maneuvering. I can see where an obstruction might warrant a single paddle, but at that point the lower profile of the yak would also be an advantage.

There are always reasons for and against, not to mention the accepted, but untested reasoning. The one that comes to mind is the cool weather fishing requires a canoe. I'm just the opposite and by November I'm in the Tarpon, with neoprene's to guard against not only water dripping, but to insulate me in case of an accident. In the case of an accident I would much rather be in my unsinkable Yak, with needed emergency gear safely stored inside. I'm also going upstream looking for wintering holes at that time and again the yak is easier for me.

Most of warm weather I'll be in the Mohawk., 13', 39 pounds and quicker than snot.

[Al Agnew]

In reality, a difference in the weight of the boat of 20 pounds or so doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the draft. As somebody said, a lot depends upon hull shape. Most solo canoes are fairly similar in hull shape below the waterline (the only place that matters) to most rec kayaks. Both are shallow arch hulls, fairly flat on the bottom, with little or no rocker. So given that, as tjulianc said, it all becomes a matter of displacement, and the longer, wider canoe will ride shallower. Getting back to the weight, I can load my Vagabond with enough camping gear for a couple of nights, maybe 75 extra pounds, and it will ride no more than an inch deeper, and probably less than an inch, than it does with the gear I take on a day trip. So the difference of 20 pounds in the weight of the hull will probably mean just a fraction of an inch of difference in draft.

Same thing applies in ability to travel upstream. It's all a matter of the shape of the hull below the waterline again, which depends upon the particular model of either a canoe or a kayak. As Wayne said, the longer kayak he has is easier to keep straight when going against the current than his shorter, wider canoe. So it's easier to go upstream in his yak. But if you compare his yak to my canoe, there is probably very little difference. All canoes, and all kayaks, are not alike, and some do some things better than others.

And yes, as Gotmuddy said, you CAN carry three rods, maybe more, with a yak if you have good rod holders rigged up. But what you can't do is carry all those rods INSIDE the craft, where the tips are protected from snagging on brush and stuff as you float down narrow, congested riffles or along water willow weed beds or just skimming close to a snag coming out of the water. With my canoes I can carry five rods, all of them with tips inside the canoe, all of them with handles right beside me or in front of me where I can grab them instantly. And I can also carry all my tackle just as accessible, a cooler that's just as accessible, and anything else I want to carry on a day trip, and it's all within easy reach without having to stand up, get out, open a hatch, or anything. And I don't have to do any kind of special rigging, other than my tackle box system, nor tie anything down (unless you're not sure of your ability to keep the canoe upright!) because it's all inside and below the gunwales of the canoe.

Here's the bottom line...I don't know of ANYTHING a recreational kayak can do that I can't do just as easily in a solo canoe of similar hull design, except possibly handling wind on lakes and bigger rivers, and also excepting getting in and out in water more than a foot deep. The yak, with the use of a double bladed paddle, has less of a learning curve than the canoe with a single blade. On the other hand, the canoe is, I believe, easier to "dismount" from in very shallow water, it gives you more easy options in the amount of gear you can carry, it carries more gear more conveniently. And you also can't discount what somebody above mentioned about the use of a single blade vs. a double blade in brushy, congested riffles or places where you have to paddle under a downed tree. And on a related fishing note, I find it SO much easier to make one handed corrective paddle strokes while my rod is in my other hand with a single blade than a double blade. Of course, I use both, and there's no law against using a single blade or even a short sculling paddle in the yak.