Wayne SW/MO Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 they're thinking it's a combination of the pet-trade demand in Asia (China, especially) I've never heard that before, but if that is a problem its unacceptable given the fact they have to harvest them and get them out of the country! Today's release is tomorrows gift to another fisherman.
bigredbirdfan Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I don't think it's simply people on the rivers, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "natural" selection. This is what gripes me the most whenever the subject turns to endangered species. A lot of people talk as if it's a "natural" thing that critters go extinct. But that shows zero understanding of evolution and extinction. If a creature like the hellbender has survived however many hundreds of millions of years it has, and if it has survived in the Ozark streams since the last ice age at least, it would seem to be pretty well adapted to the "natural" stream environment. Animals that go extinct do so because of a few simple factors. Either some other critter comes along, entering a new niche in the ecology, and kills them off, or something about their habitat changes. At any rate, it's a change that kills them off. And change doesn't usually come fast. The "background rate" of extinction...the rate at which animals or plants go extinct during long periods of fairly stable climatic conditions, is very, very low. Animals are so well adapted to their environment that as long as it doesn't change much, they continue to thrive. It's only when things change drastically that a lot of critters go belly up. A big meteor or comet whacks into the earth and totally screws up the climate. A land bridge from one continent to another opens up and gives predators that the prey animals have never evolved to coexist with a way to get to them and kill them off. The climate maybe changes gradually but finally reaches a tipping point where some creatures can't survive in the increased heat or cold. When stuff like that happens, we get a mass extinction, a general dying off of all but the most adaptable denizens. Many scientists believe we are in the middle of one of the great mass extinctions right now, but it isn't because of "natural" causes. It's due to the actions of mankind. Leaving aside the subject we're not supposed to discuss, which may be just beginning to make itself felt extinction-wise and may or may not be caused by human activities, there is no doubt that humans have caused and are causing creatures to go extinct at rates far, far above the "background" rate. There is no doubt that humans have caused major, major changes to the habitat of many, many animals, not to mention killing some of them off directly. Whether it be clearing of land that once supported forest critters, slash and burn agriculture in the rain forests, ordinary pollution, or the exotic, never before seen on earth chemical compounds we've created and "let loose" in ecosystems, we've changed the habitat, in the case of North America in a matter of only a few tens of thousands of years (a tiny blip in the history of life on earth), in profound ways. We've changed it incredibly in just the last couple hundred years. A hundred years ago there were intact ecosystems that hadn't even been explored by the "civilized" world. So the only way that most of the huge number of extinctions in the last hundred years could be explained as "natural" is if you buy the simplistic idea that man is a part of nature so anything that humans do or manufacture is a natural thing. In the case of hellbenders, when you get right down to it, the Ozark streams that have had decent hellbender populations in the recent past haven't really changed much, at least not obviously. They still seem to be pretty good hellbender habitat. Their clarity, flow, and temperatures haven't changed drastically. Nor have humans sought out hellbenders to kill off. The cause of the demise of hellbenders has to be something that isn't obvious. Too much gravel? Human caused. Too much disturbance by human traffic? Human caused. Chemical compounds entering the waters from run-off or sewage (my best guess)? Human caused. So please don't pretend that if hellbenders disappear it's a natural thing. That just excuses business as usual. The questions should be, what IS the cause, what can be done about it, and are hellbenders WORTH doing what needs to be done? That last is a legitimate question. If we find that it's the chemical compounds in the water that are killing off hellbenders, then you have to weigh the economic costs of stopping the problem against the worth of hellbenders. I agree with you and as I stated above our only chance is to ban all human activity in hellbender waterways. My point was at these population levels it may or may not prevent it.
Al Agnew Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I agree with you and as I stated above our only chance is to ban all human activity in hellbender waterways. My point was at these population levels it may or may not prevent it. I suspect your unstated point is that we can't prevent their extinction without unacceptable limits to human use of the rivers and their watersheds. In other words, our human activities are more important than hellbenders. That may be so. But I don't agree with the way you said it, because there are probably plenty of human activities in and along the streams that are not harmful to hellbenders, and probably plenty of modifications of human activities that would make them less harmful. I don't think we should throw up our hands and give up, but instead work harder to figure out just what IS going on with hellbenders. As somebody above said, they may well be the canaries in the coal mine, and we may find out that a particular activity is not only killing off the hellbenders but could be doing lots of other harm as well, just not as fast or as dramatic, and that could change the whole dynamic of what's worth it and what's not.
RSBreth Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I would bet my money on pharmaceutical and chemical runoff in the watersheds. The only place I've seen a hellbender was right where all the canoes launch near Bennett spring trout park. Anecdotal evidence that canoes and canoeing aren't the main problem, sure - but it's all I've got to go on.
Members mpl_420 Posted October 14, 2011 Members Posted October 14, 2011 more likely linked to felt Felt has nothing to do with the decline of the hellbender
Outside Bend Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Felt has nothing to do with the decline of the hellbender Welllllll.... One of the probable causes for the hellbender's decline is chytrid, a fungus which has been linked to amphibian declines across the planet. We know wading boots can transport organisms such as didymo and whirling disease, so it's not unlikely they could also be spreading this fungus. To my knowledge it hasn't been investigated, but that's different than saying felt soles have nothing to do with the decline of the hellbender. <{{{><
Justin Spencer Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 One of the probable causes for the hellbender's decline is chytrid, a fungus which has been linked to amphibian declines across the planet. We know wading boots can transport organisms such as didymo and whirling disease, so it's not unlikely they could also be spreading this fungus. To my knowledge it hasn't been investigated, but that's different than saying felt soles have nothing to do with the decline of the hellbender. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Good research! "The problem with a politician’s quote on Facebook is you don’t know whether or not they really said it." –Abraham Lincoln Tales of an Ozark Campground Proprietor Dead Drift Fly Shop
Wayne SW/MO Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 To my knowledge it hasn't been investigated, It has and it is indeed high on the list of probable causes. Some scientist however believe it is somewhat like the flu in that it is more deadly in stressed animals. Amphibians are stressed virtually everywhere now, so that could be another reason why the virus seems to worse. Today's release is tomorrows gift to another fisherman.
awhuber Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 The fungus is showing up at the STL zoo breeding project, very few floaters there...
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