Otter introduction

[gonefishin]

I am curious how people feel about the introduction of Otters and how it has impacted fishing in Missouri or at least on your homewaters. The MDC admits it was caught off guard by how fast the populations of Otters increased. Do you think it was a favorable introduction or a mistake.

Bud

[jscheetz]

Well, to be accurate it is Otter RE-introduction. There used to be a lot more otters in MO than there are now. But man's greed and unregulated trapping almost completely wiped them out. Ultimately MDC placed them on the endangered animals list. Then re-introduction took place, and actually ended clear back in 1992 I believe. So they have been around awhile.

I am sure that they had some impact on streams where erosion and poor stream management had changed the nature of the stream flow (ie - not as many deep pools) - plus, the fish there had grown accustomed to not having this particular predator there (Much like the Elk in Yellowstone before the wolf reintroduction) so I am sure it changed some things.

Personally I think that the problem still lies in man trying to play God - by only wanting "desirable" species to be plentiful, while wanting to get rid of ones that disturb that balance. Otters were here for a long time before man came along and colonized the Ozarks - so the natural balance IS otters being here - we have upset that balance by first killing them all off and then bringing them back. I know we can't go back to the balance we had before we were here, but in my opinion I would rather have it as close as we can get it.

So perhaps the MDC needs to look at other things that have come along since the old otter days - ie Jet boats, a million float trips, creeping population centers, more human fishermen etc etc and try to work to keep those in check -like they should have done all along.

In other words - otters can't help the amount or size of fish they take - they are only trying to survive. But us humans - we have the capacity for forward thinking (well, some do ) and we have a choice as to how many fish we kill - we are not surviving on them. So if we are REALLY that concerned with fish numbers, I would suggest we look inward instead of outward.

JS

[Al Agnew]

There is some question as to how abundant otters originally were in the Ozarks, with some authorities asserting that they were always rather rare. This doesn't really make much sense to me, since I can't imagine the Ozarks were not good otter habitat.

It's true that conditions on many streams are much different, and much less favorable to fish and other aquatic creatures, than they once were. I think it's true that the streams that suffer most are those with degraded habitat, especially lack of large, deep wintering pools. I also think, and hope, that we've seen the worst of the adverse impact of otters. Whenever you introduce (or re-introduce) a creature to an ecosystem where it's niche was not being filled before, it will often thrive to the point of overpopulation until the ecosystem "adjusts" to it. In the case of otters, I think it has taken their prey species, especially game fish, a while to adjust to their presence. I suspect that eventually otters and their prey will reach equilibrium.

I think the Ozarks is a richer place with otters, even though I don't like that they have really done a number on some stream smallmouth populations. I think and hope that eventually their re-introduction will be a positive.

By the way, I saw an otter on the St. Francis in Madison County back in the 1970s before re-introduction ever started. The next one I saw was on the Huzzah not long after re-introduction started.

[gonefishin]

Heh heh cheetz. I knew what your opinion was. I was wondering what other people thought.

I agree with you to some extent about man playing god and you are right "we cant go back to the way it was" We cant even get close unless we want to blow out all the dams, re-route the Missouri river again, plow out all the roads, remove all the bridges and depopulate the enviroment. Man is here and here he will stay. Man has made many changes and it is now up to man to figure out how to deal with the issues.

Reducing human population is probably a good goal but the problem with that is only the interested people would do so and soon the 'interested' people would be the extreme minority so it wouldnt matter anyway.

I don't have anything against Otters one way or the other but I am interested in knowing what others think and how they Otters are impacting the enviroment.

As to greed and unregulated trapping I think perhaps you should do some in depth study on the subject. For example deer are way more populated now than they have ever been known to be and quail populations soared when farmers started putting in hedge rows and borders around their fields. Quail populations did not dwindle because of hunting pressure they dwindled because of pesticides and habatat destruction. It is really easy to be emotional and say this is the way it was or that is the way it was or this is how it should be only to find that the reality may be/was vastly different.

From what I have read I believe that is the case here. Otters never had much of an historical impact on the enviroment in Missouri because there populations were rather small. I think they were Introduced rather than 'Re-Introduced as you put it'. I believe the thing that really got Otters 'Introduced' in Missouri was Fed $$. I believe that is the reality.

[flyingeagle]

Just like everyone else, MDC had no idea that the cute furrie little playful anmial is one killing machine. Their playful nature is that the other animals doesn't know how to play. With no animal to control them all they have to do is eat and play. They hunt and kill, look around where they have been, dead fish, crawdads, etc. All uneaten. A cat doesn't hold up to them.

Now at least MDC will let trappers legally trap them. Maybe with controled numbers-- all can live.

FS

[vonreed]

Hello all,

My opinion on the current otter situation is I beleive they are a positive addition to the rivers. I do know for a fact that they are destructive but they will never compare to people in any way imaginable but they do need to be controlled and allowed to overpopulate. I trap the furry cute little critters and spend practically the entire winter floating the rivers and have a lot of experience with them. Im not an expert by no means but I do know some. They are not a wasteful animal from what I have seen although they do comsume mass quantities of food. It has been my experience they eat more crawdads than fish in general but they still eat a lot of fish too. I trap the james and finley river and have for the past 10 years and they have had a damper on them as far as population control, expecially compared to fish available. I did make it to a different area this winter trapping and on bryant creek there is not hardly a fish to be seen in the river. They are overpopulated there. As far as anyone who thinks or worries they will be killed off because of their pelt price or any other reason, in my opinion is wrong. They are unbeleiveably hard to trap and once you do latch onto one, holding it is a different story. I hope my insight to this topic has had a positive one. Happy fishing

[jscheetz]

unless we want to blow out all the dams, re-route the Missouri river again, plow out all the roads, remove all the bridges and depopulate the enviroment.

gonefishin - you are FINALLY making sense!!!

As to greed and unregulated trapping I think perhaps you should do some in depth study on the subject. For example deer are way more populated now than they have ever been known to be and quail populations soared when farmers started putting in hedge rows and borders around their fields. Quail populations did not dwindle because of hunting pressure they dwindled because of pesticides and habatat destruction.

But then - you are gone again. DEER???? QUAIL?? Let me re-check the thread title..... yep, said "otter introduction". I was commenting on otters. You are a classic brickwaller, and that is what I love about you!!

As for my study habits - I would be happy to sit down and discuss facts - not "Ozark traditions" with you anytime. All you have to do to check on whether or not there were otters in MO is look back to fur trader records. As you can imagine not many people carefully and scientifically counted animals back in the early 1900s - especially not insignificant ones. But the records show that there were indeed plenty of otters pre "introduction" so this conspiracy theory you are throwing out there about Fed$$ - it does make for good "chin scratchin" for those who don't know better - but comon, you know you can't get by with that here.

"River otters were once common to all major streams, wetlands and natural ponds in Missouri. Severe degradation of these features coupled with unregulated harvest to support the fur market during settlement, almost caused otters to dissapear. By 1936, only a few otters remained in Southeast Missouri."

That quote is from the MDC though, so if you are inclined to believe in the conspiracy, then it won't hold much water for ya. But still worth noting.

JS

[Al Agnew]

Flyingeagle, the MDC biologists DID know they were killing machines. The guy from MDC that spent years taking his pet otters to talks all over the state drumming up support for the re-introduction was always quick to point out that they were in reality pretty impressive killers, and he also always showed the myriad scars on his arms and hands from handling them.

What MDC didn't realize was how fast they would reproduce. They reproduced about 4 times faster in Missouri after re-introduction than what the literature said was normal. Should MDC have known this beforehand? Maybe. As I said before, it could have been expected from an animal moving into a vacant ecological niche. But I have always been amazed that at the time re-introduction started, you would have been hard pressed to find ANYBODY against re-introducing them. But once the problems appeared, everybody was all over MDC saying what a bad idea it was. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[gonefishin]

gonefishin - you are FINALLY making sense!!!

But then - you are gone again. DEER???? QUAIL?? Let me re-check the thread title..... yep, said "otter introduction". I was commenting on otters. You are a classic brickwaller, and that is what I love about you!!

As for my study habits - I would be happy to sit down and discuss facts - not "Ozark traditions" with you anytime. All you have to do to check on whether or not there were otters in MO is look back to fur trader records. As you can imagine not many people carefully and scientifically counted animals back in the early 1900s - especially not insignificant ones. But the records show that there were indeed plenty of otters pre "introduction" so this conspiracy theory you are throwing out there about Fed$$ - it does make for good "chin scratchin" for those who don't know better - but comon, you know you can't get by with that here.

"River otters were once common to all major streams, wetlands and natural ponds in Missouri. Severe degradation of these features coupled with unregulated harvest to support the fur market during settlement, almost caused otters to dissapear. By 1936, only a few otters remained in Southeast Missouri."

That quote is from the MDC though, so if you are inclined to believe in the conspiracy, then it won't hold much water for ya. But still worth noting.

JS

cheetz:

I am not a brickwaller you are simply misguided. You have watched way to many Walt Disney Cartoons. Trust me they arent reality; Bambi did not exist.

I know what the topic is I was just using a couple of examples of animal population realities. Besides, I didnt bring up the whole "people being god and the unregulated trapping issues" you did; I was only responding to your post.

A lot of people think deer used to run and romp all over the place and number in the billions. It simply isn't true. The same goes for quail. I was using them as examples of animal population realities. I am sure there were some Otters in some areas of MO but there are no hard facts proving that their populations were ever very big.

Since you want to talk about getting it back like it was lets think about trout. Trout are without a doubt non-native to Missouri. Would you be willing to start a petition to have them removed from the state? I mean they weren't here to start with and have are a slap in the face to your "as close to the way it used to be fantisy". I mean everytime you see one it must really irk you.

Are you smoking today? You really should concider puting the Bong down and going out for a breath of fresh air. I never said anything about a conspiracy. I did mention that $$ paly a role in conservation. You are very misguided yet you seem at least somewhat intellegant -- certainly you don't believe that the buck has no bearing on conservation issues, do you?

Here is another 'off topic' example for you. Prarie chickens. Missouri was/is not a prarie state yet the MDC implys that prarie chickens once numbered in the billions in Missouri. The plain and simple fact is that while it is true there were some prarie chickens in Mo it simply was not possible for them to have existed in huge numbers here. Prarie Chickens require huge unbroken tracts of natural prarie to support them. Large unbroken tracts like that did and do not exist to any large extent in Missouri therefore it was not possible for them to exist here in large populations. Yet the MDC implys they were extremely numberous and get people like you all worked up and emotional about "Re-Storing" them. Why do they do this? Could it have anything to do with the fact that they get Fed bucks for the restoration of the birds and land? HMmmmm.

With all that being said, I want to take this time to say I don't want to argue all these issues. I simply want to know what people think the impact of Otters is on the fishing in MO. Especially I want to know if they think Otters are positive or negative to the SMB fishery.

gonefishin

Hello all,

My opinion on the current otter situation is I beleive they are a positive addition to the rivers. I do know for a fact that they are destructive but they will never compare to people in any way imaginable but they do need to be controlled and allowed to overpopulate. I trap the furry cute little critters and spend practically the entire winter floating the rivers and have a lot of experience with them. Im not an expert by no means but I do know some. They are not a wasteful animal from what I have seen although they do comsume mass quantities of food. It has been my experience they eat more crawdads than fish in general but they still eat a lot of fish too. I trap the james and finley river and have for the past 10 years and they have had a damper on them as far as population control, expecially compared to fish available. I did make it to a different area this winter trapping and on bryant creek there is not hardly a fish to be seen in the river. They are overpopulated there. As far as anyone who thinks or worries they will be killed off because of their pelt price or any other reason, in my opinion is wrong. They are unbeleiveably hard to trap and once you do latch onto one, holding it is a different story. I hope my insight to this topic has had a positive one. Happy fishing

vonreed:

Thanks this is the kind of information I am looking for.

gonefishin

[flyingeagle]

What MDC didn't realize was how fast they would reproduce. They reproduced about 4 times faster in Missouri after re-introduction than what the literature said was normal. Should MDC have known this beforehand? Maybe. As I said before, it could have been expected from an animal moving into a vacant ecological niche. But I have always been amazed that at the time re-introduction started, you would have been hard pressed to find ANYBODY against re-introducing them. But once the problems appeared, everybody was all over MDC saying what a bad idea it was. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Al --- You're right MDC didn't know the Otter's reproductive rate here, also in the study the otters had competition. Their litters was about 2-3 small ones. In Mo. without that competition there has been reported litters or 6 - 8 raised!!

The Piney river, the fisheries is almost gone. In the same areas the mink is almost gone also. I'm not saying that otters did it all but?????

Hey MDC tried to introduce the Otters and succeeded. Now They need to crontrol the Otters.

I wish I had the success rate ( deer, turkeys & Otters) MDC has had, with my MONEY!