SilverMallard

Dude, I'm not opposed to it done wisely, either. I just PREFER a synergistic approach. Carrot and stick...in that order...as far as I'm concerned. But Tyson is competing against China and Japan and European and third world producers, processors, distributors, and retailers. Tyson is the world's largest GLOBAL meats company...poultry and pork and a major beef player as well. They have huge market share in the Pacific Rim. That's why Clinton built him that big ole international airport out in the middle of nowhere with US tax dollars. But that is beside the point. If he wants to build skanky chicken farms and third world processing plants employing third world labor at third world prices, it's high time he did that in third world countries! Instead, we've seen 2 decades now of him running those sweat shops here in the heartland of America using illegal third world labor. As far as I'm concerned, Tyson Foods is THE quintessential example of the dark underbelly of capitalism. We try really hard not to buy their products at all, but that's getting harder and harder as competitive alternatives disappear with each passing day. Down in East Texas, at least we had Pilgrim's Pride ALL NATURAL chicken right next to Tyson's greasy yellow birds in the supermarkets and a plethora of Texas beef to choose from. Not so up here! Often times, it's Tyson or nothing. And that chaps my hide. And, FYI, if you get further west and south of the Branson area, Tyson poultry IS a big deal so far as ag goes in MO. That's a fairly recent development, but a reality out there in never-never land these days. Who do you think is putting in this mega-CAFO on Roaring River we're all talking about? Your point about the domino effect here in MO is valid though. If Tyson products get cheaper, then everyone has to get cheaper to not lose market share...even comparing beef to chicken or pork. Part of the problem we're seeing here is that MO is now a less regulated ag environment for agri-business than Arkansas is (due to recent changes in AR). And THAT, my friend, is REALLY embarassing!

We're in complete agreement on CAFO's. My point was that we need to be smart about the words we choose to frame the debate. Segregating CAFO's pits you against Tyson for the most part, which is an AR-based company that operates mostly in the western Ozarks. THAT is a good strategy...one used skillfully so far by the Oklahoma AG's office. But we must remember that these CAFO's are HUGE customers of our row crop producers to the North and of our ag pharmaceuticals industry and of our agri-chemical industry. And that brings old money from STL and KC into play...in addition to Farm Bureau and MFA. So even this isn't a clear-cut numbers game. I believe that the BEST strategy is to approach the issue from a "who DOESN'T want unpolluted water" perspective. Or...better still..."who DOES want polluted water?" Instead of the old divide and conquer, I like to take a synergistic approach. Most people simply take water for granted. And THAT is the Holy Grail of water conservation: educating folks so they no longer take clean and abundant water for granted. As for us, I think we all know that clean water = healthy fisheries. It's pretty simple. I'm not even opposed to CAFO's, frankly. But I sure as heck favor ecologically sound placement and management of CAFO's. Currently, the state only regulates mega-CAFO's for ecological impacts. So the CAFO crowd is avoiding the mega-CAFO and proliferating smaller CAFO's wherever they can find a few acres at the right price on which to put one. This causes traffic safety and environmental problems. They're being built to close to critical streams and with insufficient road infrastructure for safely abosrbing the big truck traffic in and out of the CAFO's. Environmental response teams in these remote areas are non-existent. So response times to spills (which ARE going to happen sooner or later) are horribly insufficient. We need legislation to regulate the smaller CAFO's and we cannot allow the state legislature to strip towns and counties of their RIGHT to regulate their own local ecosystems as they see fit (beyond the baseline set by the state and feds). Again, I say: NO ONE cares more about our local farmers and our local environment than LOCALS. So why on Earth anyone acting in good faith would think that SB 364 is a good idea is beyond me. It is a CLEAR attempt to roll back the strides we have made in conservation in this state over the past two decades for the sake of a few dollars to a select few corporate big shots. That, in my book, is the very definition of evil! It's predatory. And man preying upon his fellow man is how I define evil.

Folks are just joshing around, gang. Don't take it so seriously.

You seldom have break-off because you seldom hook a fish, Dano! LOL Sorry, buddy...couldn't resist.

Terry, can you burn me a copy of the CD? I'd like to do some edited clips for my MySpace site. If you could give it to me at the next SMFF meeting, that would be awesome, buddy. I saw both episodes on TV when they originally aired. Good stuff. I especially liked the one with Darrell Bowman's inserts.

I wear camo sometimes when fishing, and I release almost all of my trout and bass. Of course, I don't fish with Power Bait unless it's to intro some kiddo to trout fishing, either. But let's not make too many assumptions. Phil's pretty good about educating and inspiring his bait and spin fishing clientele about C&R. A LOT of fish caught at Lilley's get returned unharmed to fight another day.

Well, Wayne, most of MO isn't 10 miles from Branson or Lake of the Ozarks. So I wouldn't want to pit tourism against ag in this state. That's even a losing proposition in Hawaii, Florida, and California! That works in Stone and Taney Counties. But it doesn't work in Springfield...35 miles away. It sure as heck doesn't work in Chilicothe or Dexter or Moberly! We need to educate developers and farmers and even the avg suburban homeowner about the issues facing us if we continue to neglect our water. Ag is DEAD without an abundance of clean water...for their OWN purposes. Real estate is DEAD without clean water. And if you kill ag in MO, you have killed MO. MO is the #2 beef producing state in the nation behind Texas. We are also a major poultry producer, dairy producer, and row crop producer. We are also a HUGE finished ag product and agri-chemical state. And we are one of the most critical ag logistics hubs in the nation due to location. It is true you don't want to kill tourism, either. And our tourism rises or falls with quality WATER...faster than probably anything else. But to take an ag vs. tourism approach would be like taking on the Chinese Army IN CHINA with a single Stryker Brigade from the US Army. NOT a good strategy!

Is your neighbor trained and equipped to clean up contaminated oil spills from surface water? "Cleaning it up" is actually a pretty technical sort of thing. What you should do is report him to the authorities for illegal disposal of waste oil. IT IS A CRIME!

Russ, We need to start answering that question: If we have to pay $50/gallon for the water our cows drink to be distilled and transported and stored and dispensed before they drink it, that steak will cost more than $50! We can't do ANYTHING without clean water. This country is facing severe clean water...and even water period...shortages WAY before we're gonna see skyrocketing prices for beef. These guys are deluded.

You guys are absolutely right. And my concerns are mostly with location and existing standards for CAFO's. They are often too lax. Federal standards are a "least common denominator" attempt to find a one size fits all minimum. States are SUPPOSED to then tighten where appropriate to a degree appropriate statewide. Then counties do likewise at the county level. Then municipalities and watershed/drainage districts do it again. The idea is that the end result is locally appropriate AND nationally normalized. Unfortunately, SB 364 would eliminate the last two levels AND present lawsuits for state mandate violations. That just cannot be tolerated.

Cool! Nice fish.

See? I think this is a cool thread. Not to try and toot my own horn, but to me this is what these BBS's are good for. Compare and contrast...share tips and observations. I've seen stuff on all these various knots for a decade now, and never could really figure out why I would need to master a bunch of new ones. So I thought I'd toss it out there for discussion to see if I was missing something...broaden my perspective. Thanks for participating, guys. Hopefully, more will also contribute.

Actually, you DO have the right to do wrong. The principle is enshrined in the US Constitution. You just don't have the right to avoid the consequences of your actions and you have to pay your own way (supposedly). It's called the presumption of innocence. Someone has to PROVE you did wrong beyond a reasonable doubt or by the preponderance of the evidence against you (criminal vs. civil). The fundamental ideal is that we must assume people are NOT doing wrong until we absolutely KNOW otherwise (as a gov't/society). If we didn't have the right to do wrong, then it would be honky dory for the gov't to lock people up if we THOUGHT they MIGHT do wrong. As a matter of fact, we are getting perilously close to that reality nowadays on a number of fronts.

That's a good point, John. One that shouldn't get lost in the bigger discussion. However, when we allow a regulatory environment to exist wherein there is no real penalty for not doing it right the first time, many business people take the "we'll fix it if we get caught" approach like most of us do toward speeding on the highway: it's not wrong unless you get caught. The result: almost everybody speeds. In this case, almost everyone pollutes. So there's a balance that must be struck. You can't destroy the offender, or they will never fix their messes. But you can't encourage others to take their same approach and play the odds of avoiding detection...cuz those odds are stacked heavily in favor of the polluters. Enforcement catches only the worst...the tip of the iceberg. In my observation, when offenders get hammered really hard and forced to do complete restorations, it often halts all future development of a similar nature. Nobody wants the risks. I've seen this happen in Iowa and Illinois in recent years where long-standing clay shooting clubs were forced to clean up the lead shot in surface water on their properties. A 1 acre pond where a club shot clays in Iowa for almost 100 years cost $3.5 million to clean up. The members were forced to split that bill...the current members, many of whom had only been members for a year or two. Now, if someone in those areas wants to sell a hunting or clay shooting property where there is ground water, they're just out of luck. Nobody will buy one. Because the CURRENT owner accepts full liability for any clean-up that might be required. And the folks who want to sell usually don't have the millions of dollars required to remediate these problems and have them certified as clean. So the gun club/hunt club market from Chicago to Cedar Rapids is dead in the water...no pun intended.

I think the REAL secret of what you are saying is that we have MULTIPLE LEVELS of "watchdogging" and checks and balances. These guys should have to meet federal, state, county, and local guidelines and requirements in order to operate. If I open a business in Springfield, I have to get a city license, a Greene county license, in many cases a MO state license, and I have meet any federal requirements for my business...in some cases also requiring licensure. I then have to obey all local, county, state, and federal laws in operating this business. What SB 364 would do is eliminate all gov't regulation of agri-business entities below the state level. And...fyi...MO only regulates the BIGGEST CAFO's at all. Anything below gargantuan size is completely exempt from pollution regs under MO state law.

The whole reason SB364 was introduced is because the folks in Barry County swore they would pass county ordinances to stop this farm if DNR approved their permits. I believe there were a couple of county commissioners among that group of residents who made this threat. Next thing we know, Satan...I mean Senator...Coster rammed this bill through committee and onto the floor with a recommendation to pass.

Ah, very good point! We're not talking about "family farmers." We aren't talking about Uncle Bob's 50 head of cattle on 200 acres. We're talking about Consolidated Animal Feeding Operations where 60,000 chickens sit in huge egg factories or 20,000 pigs occupy less than 200 acres. We're talking about Cargill, ADM, ConAgra, and MFA...companies whose stock is mostly owned by the likes of Al Gore and Prince Charles, The Duke of York. These guys are NOT Missouri farmers! They are the guys for coerce and force Missouri's farmers into taking shortcuts, despoiling our natural resources, and accepting less than ideal wages for ever-increasing workloads per man in order to help these super-rich financiers get even richer. THAT is the cabal behind Mo Farm Bureau and they couldn't care less about Missouri farmers or Missouri natural resources.

There's nobody in charge at Reeds Spring schools. In the past few years, they have been in the news almost quarterly for some horrendous crime or another: rapes, sexual misconduct, gang fights, ...pick your poison. And they just fired the only teacher...loved by EVERYONE by the way...who has dared to try and stand up and protect the weak.

Exactly my point, John. So long as everybody could take advantage of the McClennan's generosity and hospitality, it wasn't actually worth what it should be. Real estate is only worth EXACTLY what someone is willing to pay you for it TODAY. The McClennan's were wise to shut off the cheap access. Now that value will quickly become what it SHOULD be. If YOU owned a property like that and you could work your butt off for $5/head, or you could day lease it to famous guides and outfitters for TV shows and videos and celebrity type trips for $5,000/day for 1 party, which would YOU prefer? Or say you could swap a few days of fishing your property for 2 weeks in a beachfront condo in Hawaii and a few days of private charter saltwater fishing...which way would YOU go with it? I think about 90% of us would lock the gates and hang the no trespassing signs. Break out the purple paint, Billy Bob, mama wants to go to Hawaii!

I have no firsthand knowledge on THIS issue, but I suspect TU was on board in the form of an amicus brief...basically a technical consultant siding with the gov't for credibility and "oomph!" Perhaps TU did some technical consulting for ADEQ on remediation. I don't know for sure, but these would be typical. However, it is VERY unusual for TU to get involved in ANYTHING Ozarks trout related. I've talked to national and regional officers about their activities iin this region and their positions on issues important to us. And I have seen virtually NO synergy there or interest from them in Ozarks trout. They DO, however, care a little bit about Ozarks donation $$$ to help fund their work in the West and on the artificial trout fishery in TX, the Guadalupe River. The largest TU chapter in the world is the Guadalupe River chapter in central Texas. The fishery is entirely artificial, almost entirely seasonal, and questionably sustainable. Yet, TU officials have told me they aren't very interested in the Ozarks because our fisheries aren't natural and we rely heavily on stocking programs. Blatant hypocrisy on the face of it. That's why I dropped my TU membership and switched to FFF. Anyway, my point really was that there is ZERO surprise here. Just business as usual in The Natural State. We're fighting our own battles on this side of the river. We've got a DNR that's losing all semblance of credibility fast. And a bill in the MO Senate that would literally roll pollution protection efforts in this state back about 2 decades...2 decades in which we've made very good progress. We need better restrictions on ag drainage/runoff and we're working on that. Waste water treatment we've got a good handle on. We are also working hard on septic tank regulation and private incentives. Good work being done there, too. But the ag lobby in MO is every bit as strong and ridiculously unenlightened as the ag lobby in AR. So it is always a tough battle for every inch of gain. It would be really nice if the anglers and water quality stakeholders on BOTH sides of the border could actually stop wasting time and energy pointing fingers back and forth across the state line in a childish effort to determine who is the "worst," and actually work TOGETHER on these issues. The White River system crosses the MO/AR state line about a dozen times before it turns South toward the Mississippi River. Ecosystems do not respect imaginary lines on maps. And the biggest players in Agri-biz and real estate development play on BOTH SIDES of that line. As long as they keep us divided and bickering, they have no opposition worth losing any sleep over.

Well, there are THREE universities here in Springfield, and I believe they ALL have teacher factories. So you won't be getting away from THAT aspect by moving here! But the area is growing FAST. We also were named the 3rd best city in America for families with young kids to live and work in by Business Journals magazines in 2006. They looked at the economic factors, career growth/entry factors, new job growth, quality of schools, parks, culture and recreation infrastructure, crime rates, housing, and cost of living vs. avg salaries. Christian and southern Greene Counties is one of the fastest growing areas in the state. And MO has been #1 or #2 in the nation for job creation for the past 3 years. Frankly, the schools are having trouble planning for this growth and keeping up with demand. There are also several private schools in this community and a big parochial school. There's also a big Sylvan Learning Center...I think. I've never heard of an out of work teacher in this area.

Good way to increase property value if you're thinking about selling in a few years. Deny access long enough to make it a BIG deal when it reopens, but not long enough for anyone to forget how good it was. Then you sell the place to a high rolling Yankee or Texan who puts in a big ole Orvis endorsed lodge! "That's the way you do it. Get your money for nothin' and your chicks for free." (I Want My MTV - Dire Straits)

Nah, I have it on good authority that everything is perfect in AR except whatever comes downstream from Missouri. ADEQ and Ark TU striking a deal with the devil that has ZERO punitive aspects or remediation is nothing short of pathetically embarassing...and completely normal.

Ah! So YOU'RE the red Navigator guy! And now we know...

I agree completely, and did not mean to distract from your shining example of how to effect change in gov't. I was trying to illustrate just how disingenuous some of these rascals can be. Even my own very plain-spoken and forthright Senator Champion said via her CoS that she GENERALLY opposes ALL attempts to reduce local control and increase state control in the legislature and that is precisely what this bill would do, that "the Senator would be highly UNLIKELY to support this bill." It's hard to back a politician into a corner until the vote is taken. Even then, they were apparently often "for it before they were against it" or "if they had known then what they know now, would not have voted in favor of the resolution."