eric1978

The only thing I could add to this good advice is to maybe just buy the Simms right off. If you buy the cheapest stockingfoot Simms makes, you'll both be more likely to enjoy wading and if not, you could resell the lightly used waders on eBay. If you buy garbage, you're more likely to not care for the fit or comfort of the waders, and then you're stuck with them because no one else will want them. It's always better to buy quality stuff because if you don't want to keep it you can always get some return on your investment.

I've used a Scorpion, and really didn't see how it was that much better than a Curado, especially given the prices. Just used the new 200E7 Curado and it works like a dream. Really low profile, too. Great for streams.

After reading Al's post I think I'm willing to take a stand on the topic. The trout may or may not have an effect on native populations of fish. But they are non-native so they shouldn't be there. I say get rid of 'em. Of course, I don't fish for trout so it's easy for me to say. However, if I was born and raised in Montana, I'm postitive that I would be a full-time trout flyfisherman, and if there was a stocked population of smallmouth in my favorite trout streams, I would want them out as well. Natives stay, non-natives go. That's the way the earth wanted it so that's the way it should be.

Okay just a nudge back in the right direction. Anyone got any tips on tubes?

Anything other than a mass migration is not going to have any significant effect. That was my point. Are there going to be some wanderers? Of course. But if they were "migrating" in vast numbers, they would be caught more than rarely. They may be able to survive in the water down to Onandaga, but it's clearly not ideal habitat for them, otherwise they would have established a population there. Sometimes you see a whale on the beach. It doesn't mean he belongs there.

I don't mind doing some dragging. I think with the rain it should be pretty doable.

My buddy and I are both off on Tuesday and we were thinking about hitting the Bourbeuse that day. I was thinking about Mill Rock down to Wenkel Ford. You think with this rain we've been having (and looks like we'll have a few more days) that stretch should be semi-floatable by then? How long you think that stretch is OTF? About 8 miles or so?

I don't think it's a hijack. I think it's an extrapolation of the topic and gets right to the heart of your original question. I agree with you on the regs. I think it would be difficult to enforce a "mandatory creel" for spots, but they should at least do away with any limits on them. I personally feel that there should be an 18" limit on smallmouths on EVERY river, stream and creek in MO, or at least a slot limit, depending on the population on each particular water. If you want to eat fish, eat another species. If you really want bass, go get the largemouths and spots. Smallmouth are the only coveted native gamefish that is having population and size problems. It's not unreasonable to make the vast majority, not all, of one species of fish, simply off-limits. I like Al's idea of a stamp system where you can keep one trophy per year, although I personally don't know what's wrong with pictures, measurements and a nice reproduction. I think that reg alone (in a perfect world without careless or law-breaking giggers) would drastically increase the quality and numbers of fish on the Meramec, with or without trout. I would be a little worried about taking down the dam at MS, at least while continuing to stock trout there. I know they stock trout incapable of producing offspring (I think anyway), but I kind of like the added safeguard of the dam at least while they continue to stock. There are other spring areas on the Meramec that I believe would also be suitable habitat for trout, and if you get just one batch of stock that weren't properly sterilized, and no dam to contain them, then you really could have a trout dilemma to deal with. (I may be way off on this one, though).

OTF, As a purely smallmouth fisherman, I tend to agree with you that any steps that can be taken to increase the native population and size of smallmouth on ANY stream should be taken. But out of the four issues that you raise (spots, gigging, regs, trout), trout are the least of the problem. The trout don't migrate away from the spring, so the smallmouth really have the rest of the river to themselves until they reach spotted bass downstream. They have other springs to winter around, assuming smallmouth actually migrate to winter holes. I think a lot of them stay in the same pool their whole lives, spring or no spring. Besides, water flowing out of a spring will warm freezing winter water for many miles downstream. On top of all that, trying to put the kibosh on trout at Meramec Spring would surely be met with a TON of opposition, not only by trout anglers, but by those who make money on the activity, who in general have more connections and clout politically. It's not that it's necessarily a losing battle, I just think there are other battles that are not only more important, but more winnable. I say start with changing regs on smallmouth and spotted bass limits, then go after tighter regs on giggers, and then, if things still aren't looking that good, worry about the trout. Actually, I'd personally rather see a ban on party floaters before a ban on trout stocking, but I know that's not realistic.

If I find myself catching lots of smaller fish, I'll switch to a little bit bigger bait. Sometimes it does the trick, sometimes not. Also, if it's summer, I'll try to stay away from slow moving plastics. Try throwing a spinnerbait or a WTD topwater, or even a jerkbait or fluke twitched frantically. I don't like using the word "smart," but if the bigger ones have the time to get a good look at your slow-moving plastic bait, they'll often figure you out. Throw something they don't have time to inspect, and their reflex is simply: "food...eat it!"

Had no idea cats were that interested in topwater, thought it was just a fluke when it happened. Interesting.

The last month or so has been really dry. I don't think we've had any serious rain for a while, have we? Anyway, it's probably enough to affect any stream that's not heavily spring fed.

Admittedly, there is a lot of gray area there, but I guess I would say that a by-product becomes unnatural as soon as it's no longer biodegradable. I can't think of a by-product of any animal other than humans that isn't. Honey is completely natural, start to finish. Although some crude oil does occasionally make it to the surface on it's own, it wouldn't be a problem of any significance if we weren't drilling for it and turning it into fuels and lubricants, etc.

Here's how I draw the distinction between Native American and American: The Native Americans walked across the Bering Strait about 10,000 years ago from Russia when it naturally froze over at the end of the last ice age. They were in pursuit of food in order to survive. I would call that a MIGRATION, made possible by geological events over which man had no control. Europeans used technology to construct vessels to surmount the geological boundaries that were until then impervious. They were in pursuit of spices and gold in order to enrich themselves, and used their religion to justify the exploitation of the new lands and people. I would call that a CRUSADE. Now you could make the argument that technology is a natural by-product of the particular path of evolution taken by man, and therefore any changes on the planet imposed by man are natural. But I don't really buy that. Just an example: Plastic is a by-product of technology, but I certainly wouldn't call it natural. Sorry to get so heavy, I just find this conversation really interesting.

Smallmouth. I've never caught a catfish on a topwater bait and wouldn't expect it to happen, but I'll bet it has somewhere at some time. Maybe a popper in a shallow, muddy pond.

I understand your point, and it's a good one. I think the best label we'll be able to put on MO trout is "non-indigenous, non-invasive."

Smallmouth bass were introduced to the eastern and western states around the time of the Civil War via aerated barrels on trains. Are they now native because they've been inhabiting those areas for nearly 150 years? Nope. They just happen to thrive in those areas, but they will never be native. Anytime man is involved with the introduction of a species, whether it be directly or indirectly, they cannot be considered native, because they wouldn't have inhabited that area otherwise. Al Agnew makes an argument for the introduction of spotted bass in the Meramec River System. He contends that the invasion of spotted bass was made possible simply by the building of several manmade structures on rivers local and distant. So one could then argue that, since the spots naturally migrated and were never stocked in the Meramec that they are native, right? Nope, they were led to this migratory path by the hand of man indirectly, but they are non-native nonetheless because they wouldn't have made that transition if we hadn't tinkered with nature.

Flysmallie nailed it. I think it was an absolute atrocity what our European ancestors did to the Native Americans. But am I gonna move back to Europe because of it? I don't think so. It is what it is, the damage is done and you can't turn back time. The best we can do now is appreciate what we have and do our best to preserve our treasure. Same goes with the trout. They're already there, they're filling a niche, and they're not hurting anything. Enjoy it, don't exploit it, and pick up someone else's garbage while you're on the stream. You really can't do much else.

I just took the trash out to the curb, and the bright, full moon reminded me of this trip on the Meramec a few years ago. It was late summer, just like this, and we were doing an over night on an upper-middle stretch. It was a weekend so the idiots were out pretty thick. Not bumper to bumper, but enough to put a damper on the fishing. We put in a little later than the bulk of the party floaters, so we were behind them for the most part. But it still made the fishing tough. Only caught small fish all of the first day of floating, nothing over 14 inches. A little before dark, we found a nice spot to throw up camp right next to a short pool between some riffles and a logjam. Put up the tents, made a fire, cooked some dogs and drank some beers. A couple hours after the sun set, it came back out in the disguise of the moon. It was BRIGHT. I didn't even need my headlamp to walk around on the rocks away from the fire. Decided it was time to do some night FWI (Fishing While Intoxicated), tied on a black buzzbait, and walked down to the logjam. First cast, 17 incher. Second cast, 15 incher. Fourth cast, 18 incher, all out of the exact same spot! I guess they were hungry after hiding from the drunken morons all day. Ironically, that's who was currently tricking them into eating a prickly meal of silicon and metal. Caught fish consistently for about 45 minutes until a giant beaver slapped his tail on the water so hard I just about pooped my pants. What a night. What are your favorite night on the river memories?

No, I'm totally with you, man. I've only been to the Rockies once, on a backpacking trip (no fishing...stupid, I know). And while the place was unspeakably beautiful, and simply more majestic than the Ozarks, the rivers there, at least up in the mountains, just seemed so cold and sterile. You look into an Ozark stream and it's also crystal clear (some are at least, at times) but it's abounding with life. The only place I feel I could fall in love with more than the Ozarks is the Smokey Mountains. It kind of blends the enormity of a true mountain system with the lushness of hardwood forest and the temperate feel of the Ozarks (and they have smallmouth).

I don't believe the trout have any major negative impact on the environment they are inhabiting. They cohabitate with native species well and they don't have much of an impact on the smallmouth, so I don't really see the problem. You can't stop man from screwing around with the environment, so any changes that we do create, we should just breathe a sigh of relief when they don't end up as disasters. I'll bet if you ask some East Coast smallmouth fishermen how they feel about smallmouth not being native to their state, they would respond with a shrug of the shoulders, and would probably add, "Well, I'm glad we got 'em now."

I have trouble getting away during the week in the summers, and I have to say that one of your best chances at being semi-alone on a weekend in the summer is on the upper Jack's Fork. I've never fished the Eleven Point, but I have to agree that the JF is a VERY impressive stream. Beautiful, big enough to hold big fish, but small enough to keep out the masses. The last time I was there in summer (last year), we floated from Buck Hollow to Alley Spring in two and a half days. We saw only two other canoes the first day and a half until we got past Bay Creek. It's about the most isolation I've found for summer weekend floats. The canoe rentals just stop putting in that far up once the spring water drops. Perfect for me, I don't mind dragging some. My favorite Ozark stream.

I had a Water Skeeter a few years ago, and liked it well enough for some bigger rivers, but it just wasn't very versatile. Too wide for skinny water, to heavy (and not really tough enough) to drag over shallow riffles, was like paddling a barge upstream and through slackwater, and was really a pain to set up and break down. Sold it and bought a solo canoe, and never looked back. My advice would be to look up some of Al Agnew's posts on the toon vs. kayak vs. solo canoe debate. He really breaks down the pros and cons of each one and has a TON of experience to speak from. He makes a really strong argument for the solo canoe, and I have to agree with him 100%. I'm not a flyfisherman, though, so the stability issue may be a bigger factor for you. However, the solo canoe beats the Water Skeeter in every other category.

My vote is for hybrid, too. Not an expert on striper/white/hybrid distinctions, though.

Great tips, Al. I really appreciate the kind of precise, analytical feedback you always provide. I've seen you mention before that you always try to match the color to the bottom of the stream...I assume you use the same approach with tubes? Are there any brands you like better than others? I too have had decent success with hair jigs in winter, and they have really been my go-to bait for the cold months. But no matter how carefully I fish them, I just seem to get hung up a ton with them. I can't bring myself to throw the jigs with the giant ugly weedguards and silicon skirts, and the wire guards on the hair jigs seem to do nothing to prevent hangups on rocks. But I just take a dozen or so and deal with it, since it's all I really have confidence in during winter. When I get really frustrated with the snags, I'll fish a small Senko much like you described fishing the tubes. I've had some luck with that, but tend to catch mostly the little guys.