drew03cmc

Vicious is incredible on spinning gear. It does not twist up real bad if you are using inline spinners. It has break strength that is ridiculously high compared to its rated strength. I love using it when fishing around salad on my 1000 size spinning reel. I haven't used it as a tippet material, but as 3x it would work just fine. I am kind of partial to Maxima Ultragreen for tippet material though. I like the 4# line. I throw it on the end of 2x or 3x leaders.

I understand your thinking about the trout program being self sustaining, but with tag sales down and fewer and fewer people fishing there is less money to go around. I am curious what the trout production numbers were last year compared to the number of trout tag sales in reference to, say, the last fifteen or twenty years. I think on the matter of what the state is or isn't doing right, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. Neither of us can make headway with the other, but you have shown me a new site to use. Thanks!

Dude, it's my first and only shadow bass and one of the prettiest fish I had ever caught. As for the jacket and shades, it was cold and rainy that day, hence the jacket, but I guess the shades were overkill. I understand your sentiment though See above.

Al, you are still catching bass, correct? Fish on my side of the line west of Kansas City. Your odds are just as good of catching Asian Carp as they are of catching a bass. This is my view on this. The fish are there and not going anywhere. And, what else is new? The eastern Ozarks is being "devastated" by a fish which found its own way into a drainage. Trout Program, Trout Stamp, Trout Parks, honestly?

Obviously you don't get it. I enjoy fishing Capps Creek for the reason of being away from the bunch of putzes armwrestling over the outlets at Taney, fighting over the hatchery dump at Bennett or crowding the best water at RR. I am not against catching trout, but what really gets me going is catching fish where they BELONG. I want to catch Neosho smallmouth in Shoal Creek, northern smallmouth in the Little Niangua, largemouth bass in their native stream habitat and trout where they belong, the mountains. I like having the opportunity to chase trout in Missouri, my home state, but given a choice between smallmouth and trout, the choice is an easy one. I would prefer Missouri focus on preserving their native smallmouth rather than on supporting artificial fisheries. That is my take, as well as others, but it is invalidated by those who feel trout are the superior species, or their pursuit is more noble. The reason I am against a C&R section on ANY white ribbon area is precisely what Chief said, the white ribbon areas are put and take. There are fish there when the trucks leave, get out and find them. The fish that survive a few weeks to a few years in Capps, Hickory or the Niangua to name a few are indeed resident trout. They deserve the same respect we give the 8" silver bullets. Crane Creek is a streams with perhaps the third or fourth rarest form of trout in the country (following possibly Gila, Apache and Greenback) in a self sustaining state in a creek that is only a few miles from origin to mouth. This stream deserves C&R regulations where Hickory is purely put and take as is evidenced by the nightcrawler containers providing shoreline cover. You are correct, I mis-labeled native and preferred. My issue is the time, money and effort wasted on supporting species that cannot self sustain. If the populations are self sustaining, they should be preserved. The thing about native species is that they should be preserved in their native range rather than having other species that compete for the same food sources and habitat stocked on top of them. This is similar to the cutthroat trout of the Rockies having browns, bows and brookies stocked on top of them and displacing them. Granted, here, the displacement is only presumably occurring in the stream stretches with water temperatures which are conducive to holding both species, but it is a similar type of situation in those stretches of stream. Thanks OTF, we agree again...

Smallmouth are at a distinct disadvantage because of the habitat which they are native to? Sorry, the disadvantage is that there are 5-10 trout per smallmouth (my estimation) in the stream. That presents a major disadvantage when the holding water is all trout no bass. The rainbow trout's preferred habitat is in coastal streams west of the Rockies. The only trout that is native anywhere close to our region is the brook trout which is native to upper Michigan and throughout the northern Ohio Valley. If the trout are stocked at a rate that displaces smallmouth, we have an issue. They are stocked and then regulated to sustain an artificial population which in turn creates a majority of salmonids and a minority of natives. I am opposed to C&R trout fishing regulations year round for the simple fact that there are no year round C&R trout fisheries in the state, save a few stretches of trout park water. Why would you put C&R regulations to work on Capps or Hickory and NOT do it on Crane, Mill, Barren Fork, etc? If you can answer those questions, we might be able to talk.

Your viewpoint appears to be that MDC wants to conserve smallmouth, but rather, has to spend, spend, spend on trout because that is a large portion of their budget and they want to provide quality trout fisheries (in an area where no trout fisheries existed 130 years ago, but was rife with quality smallmouth fisheries). You mention that MDC has eliminated some of the Urban fisheries. Every year I read about some new lake in Jackson, Columbia or somewhere else that is a state managed urban trout lake. That seems to contradict your last statement. When you can catch smallmouth all year from within a mile of these springs that create this cold water, and smallmouth abound in the streams the springs dump into, my assumption is that smallmouth can tolerate the cold water, but there is too much competition for holding water and what not in the spring branch. You want science, what is the smallmouth's preferred temperature range? Their ideal range is from 60-70, but you can catch them in water from the lower 40s, clear up to just over 80. They are a very tolerant species and can adapt to those temperatures. In these waterways, these fish would have adapted to the constant 58-62 degree water coming from the springs and could very well survive in the current trout water.

I can also say that on upper Shoal Creek, I, personally, caught more largemouth than smallmouth bass. The water was pretty darn chilly that day too. Al, that pickerel water sounds fun!

Al, your argument is sound. I think, due to the trout park streams smallmouth colonies, the water temperature issue is a good talking point, but it might not be the end all be all of this type of discussion. They might not spawn successfully in those locations, but they can inhabit them all year long as is evidenced by their presence.

OTF, we agree to a point? I am dumbfounded, but to answer Eric's point. I think that the trout in question were placed in the streams directly by man rather than indirectly by man via dams and locks. Spotted bass are doing to smallmouth in a short amount of time what trout have done in some streams over the last hundred thirty years. The people banging the spotted bass drum are those that have seen the changes first-hand. When the trout were dumped, they often were not done with native species in mind. I have no issue with spotted bass being in streams, however, I am not in support of the issues facing the smallmouth populations. The trout have been here so long people think of them as native fish, however, the species of trout we are catching in Missouri are native to either the west coast or Europe. One timeline of smallmouth neglect has taken over a century to get to the point where everyone feels the species are in equilibrium whereas the other has happened over the past three decades. The state could better serve itself and its natural resources to spend more time and dollars on conserving its most precious natural resource. For the record, I lived in Missouri for 22 years and moved to Kansas in 2007 to appease my wife and get closer to her family.

Nobody insinuated they did on the White. Man's stupidity did that all by itself. On the other streams where there are trout in smallmouth streams, the trout have occupied water that smallmouths occupied historically. You all act like our water consists of Rocky Mountain runoff, the streams flow at 58-62 degrees all year from the springs and heat up as they flow. The first mile or so would be pretty inhospitable for smallmouth in all but the hottest or coldest time of year, but the smallmouth evolved in these streams for a reason.

Are you honestly asking ME this question? Look at the native range of spotted bass. It INCLUDES the Ozarks, but most people on here think that spotted bass have been placed there. I am not proposing we sit idly by and let spotted bass replace the smallmouth bass in streams that have good spot habitat, but come over the SW MO and SE KS, fish a couple drainages and look at the balance of smallmouth, spotted and largemouth bass. They are all present in good numbers. Non-native trout push smallmouth out of their native habitat, not to mention walleye and what not, but obviously, being a trout supporter is more noble than wanting to see native species in their native waters. Smallmouth BELONG in Ozark streams, trout DO NOT. If the trout are self-sustaining, a la Crane, Mill, Spring, Upper Little Piney, etc, I see no issue with them holding trout, but to stock trout and essentially throw the state's money down the drain rather than spending it conserving native species is a bad deal. If the state were to pledge half of the trout funds on smallmouth conservation, we might see something better than what the last White Paper said about many streams that deserve SMAs. The reason the state is so gung-ho about trout "conservation" is that it is a cash cow for them. They make $7 from every trout angler that wants to keep trout, plus, $3 a day in the trout parks, not to mention the out of state license sales at exorbitant fees. Add to that the sales of trout related tackle, baits, etc and you have a few million dollars that tells MDC to continue to waste money conserving an artificial fishery where it cannot sustain itself. Conservation of an artificial fishery is humorous. I am eagerly awaiting your response to this as I can already see that you are a trout supporter who would be happier wading an ankle deep stream catching non-native fish than to fish an Ozark spring creek teeming with hard fighting, beautifully marked smallmouth bass. Your comment about 130 miles of trout water is a joke. That is all the state manages. You can catch trout elsewhere, but they are not advertised as being there. Smallmouth are NATIVE, that is why they have more miles of water to catch them in. If you cannot understand this, I cannot help you. Would you expect a native species to occupy the same amount of water that a non-native species occupies?

I couldn't agree more. When I am planning a trip to a White Ribbon Area, or that area in conjunction with a smallmouth trip, I don't care when the stocking truck was there last or what not. All I care is that there are fish in the stream, and if you fish the right areas the right ways, you can and will catch fish. If I strike out (seldom happens), I will NOT blame it on missing the truck. That is simply not the case. If you are fishing the proper areas in a manner which the fish have dictated, you will catch fish. There are fish in the stream, regardless if you are catching them at heavily fished accesses. Get your waders wet and find the fish that have moved away from the accesses into less pressured water. I will not tell you the one way I found fish on Capps the first time I fished it, but rest assured, it is the same method that will catch fish in EVERY stream in Missouri which holds trout. It is a search method and is deadly in slightly higher water than normal. Also, keep in mind that most all spring creeks in Missouri hold an inordinate number of scuds and the fish feed on scuds all year long. Quit this stocking truck argument as it does not hold water in White Ribbon Creeks. You can find fish in Capps or Hickory all year, every year.

The diameter of the 4# Panfish line is the same as that of the Berkley 100% Fluorocarbon 4# test. I don't see your gripe. .008" is .008" right?

Another thing to check out is a glass 6'-7' rod. I know where you can get a 6'6" 4/5 (ideal for throwing everything) built from a blank up for under $100 normally. They fish amazing and I am having a 7' 5wt built now, expecting it in the next week or so. These rods are capable of fishing everything from #22 dries up to #6 streamers. I have caught bass on a weighted #6 Girdle Bug with one of these sticks. If you are interested in these, I can pass his information on.

Read JD's post. That sums it up.

Propose that MDC lets the non self-sustainable populations become non-existent through natural processes and see where the fish persist. I feel that some of the "White Ribbon" streams are capable of supporting a small number of resident, spawning trout even though everyone writes them off as dumps. Some of the habitat on the streams is ideal spawning habitat from a non-biologist perspective and I would like to see some fish with parr marks in the creeks.

OAF is only five? Man, I thought it was older than that...Great work Phil!

I can't believe nobody mentioned my favorite creek and river crankbait, the Rebel Wee Craw. I fish light to ultralight gear with 4-6# test and use the Wee Craw in the F77 size. It will dive to 3 feet and if I need to go deeper they make the D77 in a diving model which digs to every bit of 5 feet.

What I don't understand is how a fast rod makes a good fishing tool. I am not saying this as an advocate of slower glass rods, rather as someone who has never enjoyed a fast rod. Is this because I haven't found a rod that fits me or because I just don't like them?

I am a negative. sorry yall.

Chief, we can talk about these monster browns in Capps, along with the big smallmouth I have heard about in the lower end of the creek. Speaking of which, after our float, we need to plan me a trip to Capps to wade the whole creek in a day. We could fish from Shoal up to the Mill Dam or something. Conservation of an artificial resource is funny to me. I catch and release trout because I can't stand how they taste. I am not against someone taking their 4 daily, as long as they are under the possession limit of 8. Along the lines of survey numbers, would you guess there are fewer rainbows in Capps than browns? I guess if you read that entire Capps Prospect, you would have seen that 27% of brown trout captured are over 18" long. In theory, that would mean that for every 100 you catch, you get 27 over 18" long. That is a load of crap and you and I both know it. These surveys are not wholly encompassing as they did not shock the entire stream. The stretch they shocked (most likely at the lower access) might be set up better for brown trout than rainbows.

Glad to see that you did well!