troutfiend1985

Is he trying to prevent people from floating through the stream that runs in his land? Or is he telling do not access the stream from his property?

I like it Terry and hopefully one day I'll be in that position. However, I'm just waiting for the right situation. But, I want to make sure that one thing is clear. I don't think it is in the best interest of society to have every small creek and brook open to the public. Something like Shoal creek is different, in that it appears to be floatable and probably capable of transporting commerce. But a stream the size of Crane or Hickory is not what I think should be open. We haven't ever used those streams to transport commerce, and to me there is no reason today to say differently. I want to make the floatable streams and the streams that are capable of transporting commerce open. Terry, to me it sounds like your stream and those like it are in a different category.

. Ok, I've been staying out of this as long as I can, but here I go. . . First, let me state that I would love to fish any stream that is in MO, and that I would love to have an opportunity like this. But, we have to see this from both sides. While I may want to fish a stream that runs through the back yard of an individual, we can't subject another person to this because it would suit our preference. I will probably never have enough money to have a trout stream or smallmouth stream in my backyard, and that sucks. But I have access to some of the best waters in the state. Yeah, I have to share them with the knuckleheads, but there is always enough water to share. Water has a special quality to it, and I think that is why we are fisherman in one sense or the other. But land is no different, tell me that the redwoods in California or the Flint Hills in KS aren't any more special than a small creek in Missouri, can you? Maybe subjectively, but to the whole world I don't think this rings true. And yes it sucks when some owner comes in to a piece of property to close it down to the rest of the world, but guess what: by him purchasing that land he has the right to do this, he owns the bundle of rights to that land and he can freely do what he pleases, so long that it is legal. I feel for both sides here, OTF I'm in your boat. But I can't sit there and marginalize another persons rights because I lack the financial capability to purchase that land. To me that would be no better than what we have done to the Native Americans. The sad thing here is that I see us telling people like Terry that you should forgo your rights in order to make my life better. Sorry, but that isn't going to fly by my morals or worldview. If someone has sacrificed in order to make a dream come true, then why should I have the right to tell that same individual that your rights to that land are subject to my passions and unique view of rivers? It's not like we're talking about the areas that are floatable, or are capable of being floated. We have access to those areas, or at least there is a very strong argument that we have access to these lands under MO precedent. We're not talking about the proverbial "public roads" which are capable of supporting public traffic, I think the better analogy is that we are talking about your driveway to your house. Anyways, there is my view of the situation. One of the greatest things in the US is that we have the ability to freely alienate our property, to allow those who we want to access our house while keeping intruders out. I hope that makes sense. Again, I would love to access any stream, and from my viewpoint that would be the equivalent of fishing Nirvana. But, I'm not willing to do this at the expense of landowner rights

Well Chief I don't know what to tell you, other than what I think you already know. I would almost think talking to the prosecutors office might be of service. Ask them if they consider this to be navigable, you could just shoot them an email, let them know of your situation. You could also get this guys address and send him a letter, maybe this could spark conversation. Hell, even contact an attorney if you want and see if you could get an injunction. Takes money, but it might be worth it. Or you can wait 2 more years until I'm done with school and pass the bar, it would be free then, but again that's 2 years down the road. If this stream is anything of the size of the meramec, well. . . Well, at least you know what I think. #1 thing though is to make sure this guy isn't an idiot with a gun, even Johnny Cochran couldn't get you out of that one

No I know, it was my feeble attempt at poking you three, hoping I could be funny, I need to work on that Anyways, if the MDC would dismiss this as b.s. then no skin off my nose. The MDC can do what it wants, but if it tells my brother that it was a yellow lab, then I would just have to shake my head while muttering under my breath. It's not like either my brother or I have a vested interest, as in that we'll be heartbroken if it turns out to be the proverbial "yellow lab." I would feel better if I thought there wasn't a mountain lion from the aspect of safety, but then again it would be neat to think that there are unknowns out there. I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have a dog in the fight, could care less either way, but I want to do the right thing and let them know that this is a possibility. What the government does from there is not my business, and if they want to act in a less than appropriate manner then I would only be embarrassed in that they represent me.

I'm pretty sure that my brother will just hang up if it takes too long. I was just going off of the idea that in Yellowstone they want you to report grizzlies. Given the location, and that an elementary school is roughly 4 blocks away, if that, I figured it would be the right thing to do. Now, what the MDC does with the information is the MDC's business. But at least I, along with my brother, could wipe my hands clean of the situation. Yeah, self serving at its finest. But I know that I couldn't live if a mountain lion attacked a 5 or 6 year old kid and I didn't bug my brother to at least call the MDC about the situation. Just my morals.

Wow Wrench, I wasn't expecting this type of response. Everything ok over there? It's not like I'm wasting your time, and it not like I'm literally forcing my brother. So I'm at a little bit of a loss here. . . Have you had a bad experience with the MDC?

Well, I would think that MDC would want to know if there is a Mountain Lion sighting. I think that it would be preferable to doing nothing. Wrench, this is right by a suburb of KC, and I would think that it would be for the good of people with small animals around the area to at least be alert of what may be in the woods. I would also want to know if there is a mountain lion in the area. I'm not forcibly making him do this, but I told him that it might be helpful to the MDC if you report this.

The stuff I used there was just regular pepper spray. It wasn't mine, It was my moms so I don't know the name brand of it, but I can find out here in a week or two if you would like. Only reason I had it was because we had a couple of neighbors who didn't believe in leashing there large dogs and I decided to take it with me, proved to be useful. I wouldn't recommend regualar pepper spray if you think a bear encounter is likely. I've heard also that regular pepper spray is not effective.

My brother says he saw a cat that was about the size of my dog(70-75lbs)run right in front of his car in KC. He was driving on Raytown Road near the post office right outside of Raytown(if that helps any lol). I asked him a bunch of questions, color(tan), length(long was all I could get, it happened pretty quick). My brother thinks it was chasing something, but he didn't see what. However, he tells me that the car was about 15 feet away from this critter, so distance wasn't an issue. Also this happened in broad daylight. I thought that maybe he was mistaking this for a bobcat, but then he said that it had a long tail, plus the fact that we have seen bobcats in KC often enough to not get too excited about it. Plus the fact that my brother doesn't make up stuff, he is a pretty boring person. I'm forcing him to call MDC and tell what he saw.

I'm not sure that a property owner has to do that in order to gain my respect for his property. I already have that, but by him posting his property line, I then know where my boudaries are and I will be less likely to infringe on his property through ignorance. I hope that makes sense. He knows where his property line begins, I might only have a clue at best.

Hey, who would I call in MDC if I have a question on Crane and its easements? I think that I might try a little peaceful civil protest this winter Just see what type of hell I can raise in our courts. Wouldn't have to pay for an attorney either Although you know what they say: an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

Well, that is what I struggle with the most from Elder, who besides our Supreme Court and Federal Court, is the ultimate authority on our issues. The MO Supreme Ct. seems to say that a stream is navigable if it has been used for the transportation of commerce. What is commerce? As defined by the supreme court commerce is almost anything, except for violence against women and gun usage. However, a man floating down the stream in his canoe to go trapping would seem to be commerce, i.e. selling furs. On the other hand, the court might say the commerce test is outdated and has been overruled by subsequent cases, we just won't know until someone takes this issue to court. However, you are right, a stream the size of Crane would have a hard time being considered as navigable under the transportation of commerce test. Property rights is a sticky subject. Terry, I don't see any of these access rights becoming law for a while, if ever.

Well, you do own some of the air above your land. I'm not going to go back to feudal days and the heaven to hell theory, but it has been interpreted by the Supreme Ct. that an individual does own or control the air above his property to a certain extent. Elder has been explained before, and it does not stand for the proposition that a fishable stream is public property and accessible to public fisherman. I would want to know what would happen to Rockbridge and those areas. Anyone have a good idea?

Getting images, and dizzy. . . Think I'll pass out now(only because I'm not in smalliebigs cabin ) That's a one way street there boys, no back alleys.

2L, yes sir. If I may offer some unsolicited advice, Law School=Hell. Top 3 reasons not to go to law school: 1. To get rich. 2. Because you have no other options(you always have other options). 3. To change the world. Now, if law school is your dream, go for it. But, if your reasons for going to law school are one of the above, you might want to think about it a little more. Now this is only my opinion based on my experiences, but if you ever want to talk about what law school really is and what the law schools are not telling you during the admissions process, PM me. Eric, if you think you can't get through law school on "crack(rap)" then I have a good story. Last semester I saw a girl in her car smoking a joint right before our contracts midterm. I couldn't believe it, there is no way I could even imagine drinking a beer before finishing my homework, and this girl thinks she can smoke a test after smoking a joint? She ended up passing, although it was a D- (schwiiing and a miss, waynes world). She's not the only one who gets drunk/high before coming to school, but she’s the only one I know to get high/drunk before a test(especially in law school where a few points can make the difference between a B and a C+). Law school is a cross between animal house and revenge of the nerds: want to see some dorky people partying? There called my "peers."

Washburn. It was a choice between KU, SLU, and Washburn. Washburn ponied up a half ride + a bar pass rate in the 85-88% range and a top 20 nationally rated writing program. After that, it was just a choice of whether I would rather be in debt heavily, and would I rather have a less or more "formal" atmosphere. I think I made the right choice(by the way UMKC didn't accept me, still don't know why to this day). JDC are you in law school? Cricket you crack me up man with the rap comments, the white guy whose not Vanilla Ice. lol But for me, to really feel like I'm on a fishing trip, it's gotta be a Neil Young type musician, 1960's-70's folk type singer. Dylan is right up there, reminds me alot of the white river. I love alot of Marchall Tucker Band, and that is on the playlist frequently. Check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4-a8zh0m9c Someone put some time into that and I can't think of a better video for Marshall Tucker Band than this video.

Is Shoal navigable?

I'll have to check that out. I love music, and for all of those music lovers, you should think about checking out satellite radio. Not a salesman, I just love mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyBWLALFLQ&feature=related

Yeah, Led's how the west was won is another great live album. Goin' to California. Jimi's awesome, wish Heoroin had never been invented. To bad, we lost alot of people to that stupid drug. I read a qoute somewhere that said something like: Rock is in a battle with heroin, and obviously Heroin is winning because rock is dead. Or something to that effect.

Neil was definitly on something that day, but you know what, that is a timeless album. You know what got me hooked on Neil? I was 19 and listening to Sirius radio. I heard the song Ohio live at Massey Hall, and I just had one of those moments, "My grief, what is this, who is Neil Young, and why haven't I heard of him before?" I don't think I will ever forget that day, not saying that it changed my life, but it made me aware that there is more to rock than Nirvana(I'm not bashing Kurt by the way, I have most of their albums). I have only seen one concert, and it was a couple of years ago when Neil came to KC. Even got my girlfriend to go with me, I'll never forget it. Nothing like seeing a 65+ old man trying to break a guitar. I think my generation is really missing a Neil Young, or just a group that is politically, socially and culturally aware. Probably my favorite Neil song is Down Down Down, Eric if you don't have it let me know and I'll get you a copy. From the looks of things, I think I could ride with everyone here so far. Even good ol' Willy.

Might not be for everyone, but to me it's an interesting subject. I have to drive along way to get to a trout stream, usually waking up a 3:30 to go(broke law students don't have the $$ to get a hotel room). But for me, the drive down there is almost half the fun(the drive back sucks, but that's a different story). So I was wondering, does anyone has a certain type of music they listen to before they go fishing? Or a song that reminds them of fishing? Maybe I'm just weird(ok, I know that I'm weird, but again, a different story there too.) For me, Neil young is the best music to listen to before I go out. I 25, but I still find his music appealing. Especially, Live at Massey Hall. What say you?

So I've put down my gloves, stopped thinking about logic and started using my heart a little. I think I would die if Crane or another blue ribbon stream had didymo. I'll check out these boots this winter, right now money is tight enough that I can't get out and buy them, let alone fish. If they are acceptable, then I'll purchase them. Not saying I'm conceding my position about felt, but I'll take the safe route. While some of our topics get off topic, or thrown for a loop, I feel that this one has aired out both side pretty well. Thus, this quote seems to suit “The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market of ideas, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out.” J. Holmes

Smallie, have you contacted a lawyer about a possible nuisance? Maybe you could get an injunction. While there are probably benefits to having public use of lands, look at how well a lot of these streams are conserved in the hands of a private land owner. I'm pretty sure the Apache trout are a good example of this, and there is no way those fish would be alive if all streams were public. I'm surprised that I haven't really heard anyone say that in some situation we would be taking away a persons right to property. That is really what would be happening with a law like this, you would make it harder for an individual to protect their right to property. I would love to have access to all water, but from the landowners eye, there’s no legitimate legal reason to do this. Instead, we are wanting the government to exercise its power of eminent domain. Do we really want to do that? Check out the New London situation and tell me that doesn't make your blood boil. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Pfizer-abandons-site-of-infamous-Kelo-eminent-domain-taking-69580497.html So, what about the private trout parks, and how those would be handled?

With all the "attractive" people frequenting Bennett, the state might loose business.