Otter introduction

[jscheetz]

I wish I had the success rate ( deer, turkeys & Otters) MDC has had, with my MONEY!

You got that right eagle!! It has been a near miracle that the restoration of these animals to their original range has worked so well - even moreso when you consider there are guys like gonefishin out there.

I do type with a tear in my eye however due to fishin's nasty remarks about bambi - next your probably gonna try and tell me there's no santa - I have my hands over my ears as I type, I'm finding my happy place....

Especially I want to know if they think Otters are positive or negative to the SMB fishery.

hehehehehehehehehehehehe you NEVER cease to amaze me - I have heard of slanted poll questions, but this may be the silliest! Let me know when you get some people on the fishing board to respond that the otters are helping smallmouths - hehehehehe - I won't wait up for it -

JS

[Wayne SW/MO]

I believe much of the Otter problem may be exaggerated by environmental, and climate problems. I've be well aware of Otters on two rivers that I frequented, both out of state and I never saw any evidence of harm, nor sport killing. Strangely I've seen them eat fish on several occasions, and it was always SMB, but the river was famous for its population of SMB.

Its seems that for every area that they are suspected of decimating or causing harm, there are areas where they exist, and cause no harm.

The bottom line is that man is the biggest single reason for the majority of declines in wildlife, and not as a political entity, but as individuals.

[gonefishin]

You got that right eagle!! It has been a near miracle that the restoration of these animals to their original range has worked so well - even moreso when you consider there are guys like gonefishin out there.

I have my hands over my ears as I type, I'm finding my happy place....

hehehehehehehehehehehehe you NEVER cease to amaze me - I have heard of slanted poll questions, but this may be the silliest! Let me know when you get some people on the fishing board to respond that the otters are helping smallmouths - hehehehehe - I won't wait up for it -

JS

I have done more than my fair share in the conservation of wildlife. I am sure you have already found your 'happy place'

I am sorry js I will attempt to re-word this so that even you can understand:

Do you feel Otter introduction/re-introduction has:

-Positive = had no notable impact on SMB populations

-Negative = been very hard on SMB poplations

[gonefishin]

I believe much of the Otter problem may be exaggerated by environmental, and climate problems. I've be well aware of Otters on two rivers that I frequented, both out of state and I never saw any evidence of harm, nor sport killing. Strangely I've seen them eat fish on several occasions, and it was always SMB, but the river was famous for its population of SMB.

Its seems that for every area that they are suspected of decimating or causing harm, there are areas where they exist, and cause no harm.

The bottom line is that man is the biggest single reason for the majority of declines in wildlife, and not as a political entity, but as individuals.

Wayne:

What are some of the enviromental and climate problems you are referring to?

I agree that man is a predator and has had an impact on declines in wildlife populations. However I am not sure that hunting and fishing is necessiarly the majority problem. People who never hunt and/or fish can have a very negative impact on wildlife. Also animals/fish did go extinct for untold centuries before mankind was even on the planet.

Unfortunatly politics and monetary gain do have a big impact on conservation. If the bucks were not available wolves, turkey, otters and numberous other animals would not have been re-introduced. If trout did not bring in big bucks for the state they would not be here.

gonefishin

What MDC didn't realize was how fast they would reproduce. They reproduced about 4 times faster in Missouri after re-introduction than what the literature said was normal. Should MDC have known this beforehand? Maybe. As I said before, it could have been expected from an animal moving into a vacant ecological niche. But I have always been amazed that at the time re-introduction started, you would have been hard pressed to find ANYBODY against re-introducing them. But once the problems appeared, everybody was all over MDC saying what a bad idea it was. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Al --- You're right MDC didn't know the Otter's reproductive rate here, also in the study the otters had competition. Their litters was about 2-3 small ones. In Mo. without that competition there has been reported litters or 6 - 8 raised!!

The Piney river, the fisheries is almost gone. In the same areas the mink is almost gone also. I'm not saying that otters did it all but?????

Hey MDC tried to introduce the Otters and succeeded. Now They need to crontrol the Otters.

I wish I had the success rate ( deer, turkeys & Otters) MDC has had, with my MONEY!

Flyingeagle:

Once again you make a lot of sence. I have a question. If an animal or fish is introduced in an area where it is not necessiarly native what would the outcome be?

gonefishin

[Wayne SW/MO]

However I am not sure that hunting and fishing is necessarily the majority problem.

No it isn't in my opinion, but I wish it were because it would be the easiest to control.

The threat to the watersheds themselves are the biggest single problem we face. You don't have to float far on any stream to find a high dirt bank that is falling in because cultivation has been carried on too close. The massive gravel bars and the lack of deep water in many streams is a sign of civilization that has unearthed ancient gravel and allowed it to find its way into the stream beds. The lack of water cooling willows is in most cases a product of hungry cattle, who also wade in streams deeply disturbing stream beds, not to mention adding nutrients. And then there are the nutrients, not just from feces, but chemicals from lawns, golf courses and other places that need to be green to be acceptable. Then there's the chemicals leached from everything from roofing to vehicle exhaust and the list goes on.

Its a problem too big for even government, its a problem that only the population can solve, if they ever decide too.

[gonefishin]

No it isn't in my opinion, but I wish it were because it would be the easiest to control.

The threat to the watersheds themselves are the biggest single problem we face. You don't have to float far on any stream to find a high dirt bank that is falling in because cultivation has been carried on too close. The massive gravel bars and the lack of deep water in many streams is a sign of civilization that has unearthed ancient gravel and allowed it to find its way into the stream beds. The lack of water cooling willows is in most cases a product of hungry cattle, who also wade in streams deeply disturbing stream beds, not to mention adding nutrients. And then there are the nutrients, not just from feces, but chemicals from lawns, golf courses and other places that need to be green to be acceptable. Then there's the chemicals leached from everything from roofing to vehicle exhaust and the list goes on.

Its a problem too big for even government, its a problem that only the population can solve, if they ever decide too.

I agree that the biggest threat is to the watersheads. There are a lot of improvements that could be made without having to be overly extreme.

I think that covers the enviromental changes you were talking about. How about the climate changes? And how do these tie into the Otter problem of lack thereof?

gonefishin

[flyingeagle]

Flyingeagle:

Once again you make a lot of sence. I have a question. If an animal or fish is introduced in an area where it is not necessiarly native what would the outcome be?

gonefishin

Gone Fishing You know if a species was suppose to be, it would. I love trout, in trout Parks, Mont. Wy.. They eat the same food as native. If MDC wants to stock fish-----------stock native fish. Just look at the M F Rose Bush, or the Asian Lady Bug. It has taken millions of years for nature to place all it's own. When man crosses the line is when he finds himself stuck up to his neck in stinkly turds.

But back to Your question, what would the out come be, well a weak species would die out, but with out any predators, they usually become uncontrolable. And they take over their habitat.

[jscheetz]

Gonefishin -

I appreciate you speaking simple so even I can understand.

And I wanted to apologize for inferring that you don't care about wildlife or conservation. It came out that way and that was unfair as I don't know all you do just like you don't know what I do. I'm sorry bout that.

However, you strike me as being a bit "old school" in thought, in that you have said many things like "not getting too extreme" and things along those lines. That is where I am afraid I disagree. Sometimes I think the ONLY way to get things done is by being extreme. While everyone is hunkering down on the "wait and see" approach I feel like much is lost. And while I am not sure about the otters, I have had too many conversations with people who really don't respect the wild creation to just think that if we just take it easy and slow that all will be OK. Complacency was what led to many of the wildlife and environmental debacles throughout history.

Guess I just figure if your house is on fire, you won't pontificate on what to do - you get extreme!

JS

[gonefishin]

Flyingeagle:

Once again you make a lot of sence. I have a question. If an animal or fish is introduced in an area where it is not necessiarly native what would the outcome be?

gonefishin

Gone Fishing You know if a species was suppose to be, it would. I love trout, in trout Parks, Mont. Wy.. They eat the same food as native. If MDC wants to stock fish-----------stock native fish. Just look at the M F Rose Bush, or the Asian Lady Bug. It has taken millions of years for nature to place all it's own. When man crosses the line is when he finds himself stuck up to his neck in stinkly turds.

But back to Your question, what would the out come be, well a weak species would die out, but with out any predators, they usually become uncontrolable. And they take over their habitat.

I kind of thought that is how you would answer my question. That is another reason I think Otters were probably present here in Mo but were limited in their range and populations. They are a strong predator, they are hyper-reproducing here and there are no natural predators of them. Kind of like rabbits in Australia. I don't necessairly think it is a bad thing that Otters are here but they do need to be controlled. Especially in areas where they are doing a lot of damage.

gonefishin

[gonefishin]

Gonefishin -

I appreciate you speaking simple so even I can understand.

And I wanted to apologize for inferring that you don't care about wildlife or conservation. It came out that way and that was unfair as I don't know all you do just like you don't know what I do. I'm sorry bout that.

However, you strike me as being a bit "old school" in thought, in that you have said many things like "not getting too extreme" and things along those lines. That is where I am afraid I disagree. Sometimes I think the ONLY way to get things done is by being extreme. While everyone is hunkering down on the "wait and see" approach I feel like much is lost. And while I am not sure about the otters, I have had too many conversations with people who really don't respect the wild creation to just think that if we just take it easy and slow that all will be OK. Complacency was what led to many of the wildlife and environmental debacles throughout history.

Guess I just figure if your house is on fire, you won't pontificate on what to do - you get extreme!

JS

LOL Cheetz. Dont worry about it. I am not that thin skinned. Actually I am getting used to bantering back and forth with you. Wouldnt be the same without you. I appreciate your emotion in wildlife preservation. If more people felt strongly about conservation there would be less poblems in dealing with the issues.

I suppose you are right about my being "old school" I guess it is my age. My generation has been fairly successful at improving wildlife populations and habitat however everything can't be fixed overnight, you might give us a little credit.

gf