Kentucky Spotted Bass

[ozark trout fisher]

From the only source you seem to deem credible. There are other souces that state the same but you will have to research them yourself.

Post #3

Shovelnose Sturgeon

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Member No.: 218

From what I've been able to gather, the genetics of Ozark smallmouths are pretty confused. There was so much milk can stocking in the early 1900s that there are probably no pure strains of Neoshos left. The various river systems may have all had slightly different strains originally. If you look at the connections between river systems, you can see why this might be so. The Neoshos were native to rivers flowing into the Arkansas River, and rivers like the Mulberry and Big Piney in Arkansas may have had Neosho strain fish originally. And since the White River flows into the Arkansas or thereabouts where both come into the Mississippi, chances are the White River fish (including Current, Black, and Eleven Point) may have had fish similar to the Neoshos originally. I remember reading a genetic study somewhere that said that the fish in the streams flowing directly into the Mississippi in MO (the Meramec river system and smaller streams like Saline Creek) were a little different genetically from the fish in the rest of the Ozarks. And it's just possible that smallies were not even native to the rivers in MO that flow into the Missouri River, like the Gasconade and Osage river systems (including the Niangua and Pomme De Terre). It's been pretty well known that rock bass were not native to these streams.

As an artist, I've noticed that smallmouths on the Buffalo in AR look a little different than the Meramec River system smallies I'm used to catching. Maybe slightly different genetics?

The original native range of smallies was the Ohio and Tennessee river systems, the upper Mississippi river system, and the rivers flowing into the Great Lakes. The Ozarks was somewhat separate from all these areas. And there are differences between Great Lakes type fish and Tennessee/Ohio river system fish in general body shape. The Great Lakes type fish and the upper Mississippi fish are blockier and deeper through the body than Tennessee/Ohio fish, which tend to be pretty slender if they are river fish, and football shaped if they are reservoir fish. The Ozark fish in general look like Tennessee river fish rather than upper Mississippi fish, but they are a different strain with less potential to get really large. That's the reason why the top size of Ozark reservoir smallmouths seems to be about 7 pounds while fish in some of the Tennessee and Kentucky reservoirs, in the same latitude and with a similar growing season, have produced lots of fish bigger than that, including the world record. Since Neosho strain fish don't get very big, could it be that smallies all over the Ozarks are "contaminated" with Neosho genes?

Maybe I am reading this post wrong.... But it says that smallmouth may or may not be native to the Gasconade or Osage River systems. The same is not said about the Meramec system. He simply says there that he believes the Meramec smallies look a bit different than the ones from the Buffalo, and other south flowing Ozark streams. I don't believe he's saying they're non-native. But I could be wrong.

[Wayne SW/MO]

They're not native in the Meramec River system.

You can't know that's an accurate statement. They're native to the big rivers and there's nothing to keep them out of the Meramec. There's no way of knowing that they haven't been in the river in the past. The general consensus, as I understand it, is that the rivers are warming and attracting them farther upstream then we know of historically.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Maybe I am reading this post wrong.... But it says that smallmouth may or may not be native to the Gasconade or Osage River systems. The same is not said about the Meramec system. He simply says there that he believes the Meramec smallies look a bit different than the ones from the Buffalo, and other south flowing Ozark streams. I don't believe he's saying they're non-native. But I could be wrong.

I guess it was this that threw me:

"The original native range of smallies was the Ohio and Tennessee river systems, the upper Mississippi river system, and the rivers flowing into the Great Lakes. The Ozarks was somewhat separate from all these areas."

But like I said, there are other places that you can also read like information. I would venture to guess it is in the interpretation of the reader as to volumn of correctness.

[eric1978]

I guess it was this that threw me:

"The original native range of smallies was the Ohio and Tennessee river systems, the upper Mississippi river system, and the rivers flowing into the Great Lakes. The Ozarks was somewhat separate from all these areas."

But like I said, there are other places that you can also read like information. I would venture to guess it is in the interpretation of the reader as to volumn of correctness.

I've never heard anywhere that smallmouth are not a native species of the Meramec system, but if you find any credible info about that, I would be very interested.

[ozark trout fisher]

I've never heard anywhere that smallmouth are not a native species of the Meramec system, but if you find any credible info about that, I would be very interested.

From the MDC's page on the smallmouth bass fishing in Missouri.... And I qoute

"Spotted bass

Since the mid-1980s, Conservation Department fisheries biologists have noticed that spotted (Kentucky) bass have increased dramatically in portions of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse rivers where they were historically absent. In those rivers, spotted bass rarely seem to reach the 12-inch length limit, grow slowly and have been shown to compete and hybridize with native smallmouth bass.

While there is no doubt that smallmouth have been affected by habitat alterations, the continual march of spotted bass further upstream each year concerned biologists. Smallmouth bass numbers appear to have declined in many areas and biologists believe spotted bass may be part of the reason.

In response, the Conservation Department removed the minimum length limit on spotted bass and increased the daily limit to 12. Anglers in these three rivers can help slow the increase of spotted bass by learning spotted bass identification and taking some home."

With that said, if anyone can give me some solid info giving reasonable proof smallies aren't native to the Meramec, I'd sure like to hear it. But this article by the MDC seems to suggest they are in fact native.

[KCRIVERRAT]

Like I said on Wader's original post. I think they're becoming native, not invasive.

[ozark trout fisher]

Like I said on Wader's original post. I think they're becoming native, not invasive.

I have to disagree with you... I think Spotted bass are almost the definition of an invasive species in the Meramec Basin. They are destroying smallmouth bass populations in areas where they used to be abundant. I believe that the definition of an invasive species is essentially a non-native species that crowds out native species, and causes a lot of problems. I believe spotted bass (anywhere they aren't native) fit this description precisely. I don't want to see the smallies crowded out of my home river, and be replaced by non-native species that shouldn't be there. They are stifling the Bourbeuse (as well as the Lower Meramec and Big River's). I want them gone.

Right now, I don't see any evidence smallmouth aren't native to the Meramec. The MDC sure thinks they are.

Seriously, ask any old-timer in Franklin county..... The Bourbeuse used to be a great smallmouth bass stream, but its merely a skeleton of what it once was. It's sad, and we need to do anything possible to stop any more damage.

[KCRIVERRAT]

I have to disagree with you... I think Spotted bass are almost the definition of an invasive species in the Meramec Basin. They are destroying smallmouth bass populations in areas where they used to be abundant. I believe that the definition of an invasive species is essentially a non-native species that crowds out native species, and causes a lot of problems. I believe spotted bass (anywhere they aren't native) fit this description precisely. I don't want to see the smallies crowded out of my home river, and be replaced by non-native species that shouldn't be there. They are stifling the Bourbeuse (as well as the Lower Meramec and Big River's). I want them gone.

Right now, I don't see any evidence smallmouth aren't native to the Meramec. The MDC sure thinks they are.

We can go on and on OTF. I disagree with you too. Spot's were not introduced. They made there way up to the Meramec. On their own. I'm sorry your home river is being over run by spots. Please see my post on Wader's original post. Like he said, he didn 't want this to turn into a spot debate. Look OTF, I know you're a good guy. Join me someday in southern Missouri or in Arkansas. Smallmouth GALORE!

[Chief Grey Bear]

All research seems to confirm that Smallmouth bass are historically native to the Ohio and Tennessee rivers and their tributaries and also to the Great Lakes the St. Lawrence and their tributaries. The eastern boundary were the Appalachian Mountains and on the west by the Mississippi river. Now if one were to take a quick look at the drainage in this area, you would see that most of the rivers will either flow into the Ohio or one of the Great Lakes or the St. Lawrence.

My point in that is Missouri is on the very western fringe of that. Meaning that it is adopted by most that more than likely smallmouth migrated towards the Mississippi and into Missouri waterways than the other way around.

Record keeping or even reports of fish caught in Missouri were not started until most likely in the early 1800's at best. So at that, since that is when records first started appearing, and they were in Missouri waters by that time, then we consider them native.

There is no way of knowing when smallmouth entered into Missouri waters. But I firmly believe that smallmouth came from the Ohio and then into Missouri waters.

You will not find any information on smallmouth that is specific by river when they showed up or even how they migrated. You will just have to consume all information that is out there and develop your own synopsis.

So, no, Eric you won't get any "credible" info, but what Al said in that post mimic's all information that is out there on the web.

[eric1978]

We can go on and on OTF. I disagree with you too. Spot's were not introduced. They made there way up to the Meramec. On their own. I'm sorry your home river is being over run by spots. Please see my post on Wader's original post. Like he said, he didn 't want this to turn into a spot debate. Look OTF, I know you're a good guy. Join me someday in southern Missouri or in Arkansas. Smallmouth GALORE!

KC,

I really don't want this thread to get argumentative, as it seems it is heading. But this is a thread about spots so we should continue to discuss it. I have to say this:

Spots were not introduced into the Meramec system by stocking. However, their migration was facilitated by man tinkering with the waterways. Specifically what we did to allow this migration, I honestly don't really know, but others have theories. But the fact is, spots just got there in the last few decades, so clearly man had something to do with it. If they had migrated into the Meramec hundreds or thousands of years ago for some other reason, I would agree with you that they are native. There would be no question about that. But that's not the case. It's because of us that they're there.

And regarding your other post, a species cannot "become" native. Native means that either they were always there, they evolved there, or they migrated there on their own, without human influence. I'm not saying that a non-native species can't reach an equilibrium with the ecosystem (i.e. MO trout), but they will NEVER be native. Also, the spots are not reaching an equilibrium, they are taking over. They are throwing the ecosystem out of balance, and native species are suffering because of them. What's happening in the Meramec and its tribs is not what the earth intended, and we should do what we can to fix what we've screwed up. I'm not sure why this is such a debatable point, it just seems like obvious common sense to me. I do have a feeling that if the streams in your area were under attack like the ones closer to us, you would have a much more negative opinion about the intruders. Another incentive for you: the better our streams are up here, the less often guys like me will drive down and fish your waters...more fish, peace and solitude for you!