Please Defend This!

[Guest P. owensby]

No. All I am saying is that during a time of financial crises for this country, we should not be looking to cut taxes. We should be raising taxes. No matter how much that's gonna hurt, it needs to be done in order to stabilize the debt and also the economy.

And I really don't think it was Jesus who said anything about teaching a man to fish...

Biblical refrence, sorry, you are correct. However I think you're Jesus/Communism equation is quite interesting and disturbing at the same time. After all, Some of history's greatest figures are commies:; Cruschev,Stalin,Lenin, Castro, and their are socialist's too with a great pedigree as in Hugo Chavez, Che , etc. Yep, when I think of great men, those are the first ones to come to mind.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Hey, Paul, I read you email to me today. I lost your address and you can't recieve PM's. Just wanted to let you

know I wasn't brushing you off. I only read my email about once a week.

[catman70]

Actually, mean income is around $43K (http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm). Furthermore, we have public school teachers who are making more than $100K once all the benefits are added in, so I don't think that number is absurd.

You're probably right on the Jesus quote. However, I imagine that he didn't follow that up with "and so you should take 50% of everyone's paycheck who earn more than a certain amount under penalty of imprisonment". People in this country with small and large incomes alike give more to charity than any other country in the world. Charitable donations should be voluntary, and I think Jesus would agree.

With all due respect, if a self-made individual is an elitist myth than who do you owe for the success of your business? Doesn't your logic suggest that your success is based on someone in government is helping you win these contracts? By your own admission hard work, intelligence and drive aren't enough. If taxes are the least of your worries are you sure you're paying your fair share?

[catman70]

The "fair tax" is anything but fair. Lets say you earn a whooping $25,000 a year and have a family. You won't have the luxury of socking away a huge chunk of money to avoid spending it and therefore paying taxes. Being generous, You have to buy $20,000 worth of stuff to support your family. Your consumption tax rate of a "modest" 10 % means you pay $2000 in taxes.

Another guy earns $3000000 but can easily afford to support his family on $500,000 with lots of luxury items thrown in. So he pays $50k in taxes and earns interest on the 2.5 million and earns a modest 5% on that money netting him another 125,000. Sure the gov't got some money, but really he comes out ahead and is not sacrificing anything. The poor guy is the one really feeling it. Not to mention the rich guy will continue to say we should get rid of medicare. In other words, the name fair tax is misleading.

The Fair Tax wouldn't be applied to items such as food and water (i.e., the necessities of life). It would only be on things like cars, electronics, etc. I would recommend reviewing this book: http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496

[catman70]

That is not entirely true. You are basing a long established infastructer and supply system against a brand new one.

You will always have highe production cost for a new product. And that price will steadily decrease. Can you imagine

what the cost of oil production would be if all facilities were being built new today?

And there are more effecient forms of ethonol than corn. Switchgrass for instance is a one time planting and is

havested like hay. No replanting cost. You don't need many specialized peices of equimpent like crop production.

And as an added benifit, it produces more energy units per acre than corn.

Then you can weigh in all the reduced erosion. There is a huge savings just in that. Then you can also weigh in the

fact that many of our prairie species that are having a tough time surviving will be able to make a come back.

I knew the part about the enigines would come to play. We have the technology to correct these problems. We can look

no further than Formula 1 racing. They have been running that for years. Yeah I know the motors are rebuilt everytime

but, the tech is there. We just have to quite sucking up to the oil companies and learn to breath for ourselves.

But that will be very hard to do when our very own president rips the solar panels right off of the Whitehouse and

the new Speaker of the House trashes every green tech option the previous speaker installed. With help like that on

Penn. Ave, it is no wonder this country can't get green.

Infrastructure and delivery are something else entirely. It literally takes more than a gallon of gasoline to make a gallon of ethanol. Yes, there are promising technologies out there but these still have to be developed.

[catman70]

Exactly!!

The mere fact we can discuss a flat tax is because we don't have one. The reason we don't have one is because we tax the wealthy at a much higher rate, something that would have to be made up by those in the lower income brackets. It really simple math.

No one should confuse tax rates with deductibles. The only deductibles that have been adjusted are those affecting the lower income brackets.

It won't have to be made up by people in lower income brackets if we reduce spending. We can raise taxes 10%, decrease federal revenue, and drive more investment overseas if you really want to. However, without reductions and restrictions on spending we'll find ourselves back in the same place in a few years.

[Tim Smith]

Biblical refrence, sorry, you are correct. However I think you're Jesus/Communism equation is quite interesting and disturbing at the same time. After all, Some of history's greatest figures are commies:; Cruschev,Stalin,Lenin, Castro, and their are socialist's too with a great pedigree as in Hugo Chavez, Che , etc. Yep, when I think of great men, those are the first ones to come to mind.

No, that quote comes from Chinese folk wisdom, not the Bible.

Maybe a good way to have political discussions here would be to require people to read the New Testament first.

Callin' people "Stalin" is skating close to the big X.

[flytyer57]

NEWS FLASH

House Speaker John Boehner said Monday he’s prepared to consider curbing long-standing tax breaks used by oil and gas companies as part of the effort to cut the federal budget deficit, signaling a softening of the Republican position on the issue.

“It’s certainly something we should be looking at,” Mr. Boehner said in an interview with ABC World News. “We’re in a time when the federal government’s short on revenues. They ought to be paying their fair share."

Mr. Obama and congressional Democratic leaders have repeatedly called for the ending the tax subsidies for large energy firms. Limiting or ending these tax breaks could generate between $20 billion and $45 billion in savings over 10 years, Democrats have said. Democrats sought to put some of the oil industry tax breaks on the table during recent budget negotiations. But they dropped the issue in the face of Republican opposition.

From the Wall Street Journal

[Tim Smith]

You're probably right on the Jesus quote. However, I imagine that he didn't follow that up with "and so you should take 50% of everyone's paycheck who earn more than a certain amount under penalty of imprisonment".

No, but in the same chapter he said to sell your possessions and give them to charity. Elsehwere he told the man who has 2 cloaks to give one away. So you're about in the right ball park with that 50% number.

Charitable donations should be voluntary, and I think Jesus would agree.

Interesting. When shown a Roman coin and asked if we should pay taxes, Jesus also said "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and the Romans were famous for (corrupt) charities. Are you suggesting Jesus didn't know about the bread and circuses?

With all due respect, if a self-made individual is an elitist myth than who do you owe for the success of your business? Doesn't your logic suggest that your success is based on someone in government is helping you win these contracts? By your own admission hard work, intelligence and drive aren't enough.

Even though it is convenient to pretend the world runs on single drivers, it is in fact much more complex than that. Your government has provided education, infrastructure, physical protection and administration of public resources for what has been referred to many times as the greatest country on earth. In that sense, yes, the government has helped me in my buisness and it helps others in their business as well.

I could stand up and pretend I built the roads I use and the research that made the computers I use possible...or the theoretical foundations of statistics and chemical analysis and population biology. But in fact, the government paid for most of that.

You need individual capacity to succeed, but the "self made man" is mostly myth, yes. It requires great arroagance to claim you've gotten where you are all on your own.

If taxes are the least of your worries are you sure you're paying your fair share?

Interesting turn toward personal statements here. Feeling a bit cornered?

Another good sign the thread is about to crash and burn. We have taken too much latitude from the conservation theme here.

[Wayne SW/MO]

But no mention of GE??? Seems that oil companies aren't the only ones who have sugar daddy's in Washington.