Hooking Mortality of Trout: Barbed vs. Barbless

[SilverMallard]

Phil just quoted Mike Krusse, the "esteeemed" MDC trout biologist as saying that barbless hooks do not reduce mortality rates of hooked trout. I thought I'd bring in a few real experts who have done real research on the subject for discussion.

http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php...p;setcookie=yes

http://dnr.wisconsin.gov/org/es/science/in...routHooking.pdf

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/Fisherie...ase.htm#results

In layman's terms from a highly respected outfitter:

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com/turck...ng_barbless.htm

Major newspaper article...pay attention to the 3 states/provinces that require barbless hooks in catch-n-release areas:

http://www.startribune.com/531/story/566995.html

Add one more state to the list: http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/fish/troutcar.html

Our neighbors in KS teach this in their training programs for wildlife biologists (scroll to bottom of page for chart): http://www.k-state.edu/fishecology/fishmgt/regulations.htm

http://prodwbin99.dnr.state.wi.us/org/wate.../pubs/trout.pdf

So in addition to WI (above), we also have FL:

http://research.myfwc.com/features/view_article.asp?id=3907

And CA: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:6-OMi...=clnk&cd=19

I could also provide reams and reams of articles from reputable guides, outfitters, and even more fisheries biologists and gov't agencies. But I think y'all get the point.

Heck, even MDC recommends barbless hooks for trout!

http://www.mdc.mo.gov/fish/sport/trout/troutethics.html

Oh! And here's an interesting article that makes reference to the head trout biologist for AR's new management recommendations for Beaver's tailwater trout fishery. As many of us know, fish AR C&R zones for trout with a barbed hook and you're asking for trouble. It's against the law there.

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/ozark/

[Wayne SW/MO]

I have a theory, developed after a few decades of fishing, that the main reason that barbless improves mortality is the simple fact that it speeds the process of release.

While a 2 or 3 weight can have its uses, upper Taney isn't one of them, anymore than a 7X tippet is.

If you've ever watched a 4 or 5 minute picture session with a 20+ inch fish, after a long fight, you know you aren't surprised when they turn belly up. What does surprise me is the effort some put into reviving a fish after they kill it!

[SilverMallard]

Wayne, that is indeed ONE of the main benefits of barbless hooks with regard to mortality. Most of those links make that point. But the MAIN place you see a HUGE difference is when bait fishing. Fish take bait deeper than lures and flies. Barbless hooks solve a lot of problems in that scenario. Also, single barbless hooks result in a lower incidence of eye/gill damage...which is often eventually fatal. Most mortality studies measure "instant mortality." They hold the fish for no more than a day or two. The reason is that if they tank fish longer than that, some die just from being tanked. And that skews any attempt to do a long-term mortality study.

I would agree that the BIGGEST management technique for reducing C&R mortality rates is artificials and flies vs. bait. But to say that barbless does not reduce hooking mortality is just preposterous. And that's not based on years of anecdotal observations by a lifelong fisherman. That's based on SCIENCE.

[MTM]

Well I guess I will weigh in on this a might. I started guiding in 1969 on the Henry's Fork in Idaho and have guided for about what 37

or so years. I was on the water about 200 or more day's a year in that time. When I started about half the people we took were spin fishermen and used lure's. I never took bait fishermen.

The year the Big Horn opened I guided that river 131 day's and kept all length's and weight's of fish that we took for the whole year for the Fish and Game. Seem's out here at least they think the good guides know about as much as they do about the fish in a given river. Thing is both party's make there living off of those fish and want them in the best shape they can be. I was also around when the first Catch and Release came out. I have one of the first patches they ever made on the subject. It reads "Limit Your Kill Don't Kill Your Limit"

Here we go. Most hook's used today have what we call "Micro Barb" On them. (Talking Fly Hook's Here) They are for the most part very small. Not like the old hook's we use to tie on. I "Do Not Feel That The Barb On A New Style Hook Hurt's A Fish At All" Period. I think fish are misplayed and miss handled and cause much more problem to the fish than any barb ever has. I see guy's on line all the time bragging about how they catch fish on 12x and O, 1 and 2wgt rod's. Sorry but that put's one heck of a lot more stress on fish than

a small barb ever well. I have landed and let lose many thousand's of trout in my life and if handled properly there is no problem with any barb on a hook.

I see people taking 10 picture's of a fish and holding them out of the water all of that time. I see them lay them on a "DRY" bank to get a shot. But most of all I see them over play fish all the time because they do not know the limit's of there gear. Stop all of that then complain about the Micro Barb on a hook to me. Teach people to quit fishing when the river's get to warm. Teach them how to play and handle a fish. Teach them that 0, 1 and 2wgt rods with 8x, 9x 10x and 12x is not good for the fish. Teach them to leave the fish in the water while taking the hook out and release the fish without handling them. Then I will worry about a Micro Barb on a hook. Also put a limit to the number of fishermen on some river's in a day. Like on the Horn you see fish with 6 or 7 flies stuck in there face. Then Tell me about Barb's on hooks. Micro Barb's or for that matter any barb on a fly hook is the least of the worries a fish has. Ron

[Phil Lilley]

Can't take this to the bank but it's worth stating, maybe-

Arkansas agent was asked about the barbless rule. He said it wasn't about saving trout- it was about making money. The fine for using a barbed hook in Arkansas is $175.

Now for a true story- this you can take to the bank. A friend was fishing below BS dam on the White when an agent approached. He asked to see the fly he was using. He had been careful to pinch the barb down. When the agent poked the hook into his tightly weaved shirt, it came out easliy but it pulled out one fiber. He got a $175 ticket. He will never go back to Arkansas to fish.

[SilverMallard]

Well, Ron, you are entitled to your experienced opinion. But that's all it is. It isn't based on scientific research and observation. It is based on anecdotal experience...a lot of it to be sure, but still just an opinion of a guy who hase done a lot of fishing. I posted direct links to several authoritative scientific studies including one meta-study of all the other studies done on the subject. The data was collected by scientists using scientific methods and measurements. The data was analyzed over the past couple of decades by a wide array of scientists from all over the country. And it was re-analyzed by the meta-study and the report on the USGS site was compiled. The feds, most states, and THE VAST MAJORITY of trout fishing guides and outfitters worldwide agree that barbless hooks are the way to go.

You know, Ron, using your logic, there is no reason to outlaw driving while intoxicated because the majority of highway fatalities are not alcohol-related. Or there is no need to stop some lesser type of water pollution because there are bigger sources out there. Some things are more controllable than others, Ron. And that factors into the equation too. If you do all the little, easy stuff it adds up to big results. Controlling the behavior of millions of anglers (most of whom are casual/occassional anglers only with no training) when it comes to fish handling is a pretty daunting task. But banning the mfg and sale of barbed hooks would be pretty easy. And outlawing them on a specific stretch of C & R or slot limit water is even easier.

But I completely agree with you about the other problems you mentioned. And if we COULD get people to stop doing the things you mentioned we would see a big improvement in our fisheries.

Barbless hooks is certainly no "cure all!" But it's a simple thing that does no harm and does help some. Kind of like picking up that one piece of trash on your way out of the stream and carrying it out with you. You didn't clean up the whole river. But if everyone would just do that, 90% of the trash would be gone in a couple of months. And it's no big deal. It's easy. And it costs no one anything. That's how I feel about barbless hooks.

Now for a true story- this you can take to the bank. A friend was fishing below BS dam on the White when an agent approached. He asked to see the fly he was using. He had been careful to pinch the barb down. When the agent poked the hook into his tightly weaved shirt, it came out easliy but it pulled out one fiber. He got a $175 ticket. He will never go back to Arkansas to fish.

And in your business, Phil, I can see why that is a big deal to you. Do you have any idea how many people DO go to AR to fish for trout every year? It's a LOT more than come here! So I don't think that barbless rule is hurting them very badly.

But more importantly...THAT is your response to all the links I posted? YOU said Mike Krusse said it doesn't have an impact on mortality. YOU said MDC disagreed with me about barbless hooks reducing mortality. I have demonstrated quite unequivocally that Mike is dead wrong or you misunderstood him AND that MDC does...in fact...recommend barbless hooks for trout fishermen in an effort to reduce C&R mortality. And an anecdotal story about one guy who got a ticket in AR is your reply?

[Kicknbass]

Dude Lighten up.

[MTM]

You know I spent more time on the river's taking fish off of Hook's than any 10 of the people you are giving as an example. Sorry experence has taught me that a barbed hook is no big deal if you know how to handle a fish in the correct manner. You can give all the sience you want to. I will believe the person that does it day in and day out first, and everytime.

In my view you have an opinion that you are intitled to and I am glad that you have one. You read and "Believe" Everything that some one say's that is OK by me. But I would rather take the guide that is on the river day in and day out than the guy that spends 10 or 15 days a year doing some research. Just think during that 10 day's he saw 5 out of 50 trout hurt because the angler was using a barbed hook. Did he ask the fisherman how he handled the fish? Was that in the study? Bet not. What happened to the other 355 day's he wasn't there? And I will bet that NO one in those groups spent everyday, Day in and day out on stream's. Seen to may of those study's being preformed out here. 10 to 15 day's top's during the season. Not enough money to do other wise. Plus they have to spend time in the lab and doing all the other stuff to come up with an opinion.

They way I look at it if you don't like barb's don't use them. If the law say's I can't use one I will bend it down. (By the way what Mr Lilley said I have seen happen in two other states. If they stick the hook into there shirt and it picks up anything they fine you. Saw it in Wisconsin and in PA. And in both places I was told the same as Mr Lilley has stated, it is all about the fine and nothing more.

I chose to leave the barb were it is unless it is illigel. Then I will follow the law. But I will make dang sure that the barb is gone from the hook and it comes out clean when pulled through a shirt. I will also make sure that I handle the fish in the proper manner if I am releasing it. I do everything in my power to make sure the fish is returned to the river in the proper manner.

We all, will kill some fish no matter how well we handle them. It is just a part of fishing. Fishing is Hunting but with a rod and not a gun. You are hunting fish to catch. Even if you let them all go you will kill some of them. That is fact and a part 0f life. A small barb will do no worse than no barb. Sometime take a look at the new barbs and a hook without a barb. Not much difference at all. Any hole in the fish would not be much different than the hook going in with or without the barb on the hook. Even if the hook is torn out. What about the barbless hook that hooks a fish and is torn out when the fish jump's or takes a run? What happens to that fish? Might have an even bigger hole than one released that was caught with a barb on the hook. Reminds me of a saying that I was told of while in Collage. " When Playing with Number's or Statistics You can make Them say anything you want if you play with them long enough" Ron

[Phil Lilley]

http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php...p;setcookie=yes

"...that fish caught on barbed hooks had higher mortality rates than fish caught on barbless hooks,"

http://dnr.wisconsin.gov/org/es/science/in...routHooking.pdf

3. Barbed hook restrictions are generally unnecessary (biologically ineffective at reducing post-release mortality) when stream trout are caught with bait or spinners. However, in bait fisheries where rates of deep hooking are substantially higher tha those we measured, barbless hooks may reduce mortality.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/Fisherie...ase.htm#results

Management Implications do not even mention barbless vs barbed, only the difference in the time it takes to release the trout.

In layman's terms from a highly respected outfitter:

http://www.flyfishingjacksonhole.com/turck...ng_barbless.htm

One person's opinion...

Major newspaper article...pay attention to the 3 states/provinces that require barbless hooks in catch-n-release areas:

http://www.startribune.com/531/story/566995.html

Another reason for barbless hooks - human/hooking incidents.

Add one more state to the list: http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/fish/troutcar.html

Not sure what you mean by adding another state... NY is pointing out using barbless hooks to reduce mortality of trout that are released.

Our neighbors in KS teach this in their training programs for wildlife biologists (scroll to bottom of page for chart): http://www.k-state.edu/fishecology/fishmgt/regulations.htm

Types of regulations

http://prodwbin99.dnr.state.wi.us/org/wate.../pubs/trout.pdf

This study found the diff "insignificant".

So in addition to WI (above), we also have FL:

http://research.myfwc.com/features/view_article.asp?id=3907

I like this quote - "None died when we simply cut the leader and left the hook alone. Fish are capable of rejecting, expelling, or encapsulating hooks. Encapsulation is a process whereby the fishes' healing process causes the hook to be covered with an inert matrix of calcified material; or a-cellular tissue. Steel and bronze hooks are less toxic and are rejected or �dissolved� sooner than are stainless steel and cadmium-plated or nickel-plated hooks." So why not make it a law that if a hook is deep in a fish's mouth, cut the line- then no fish will die. I've been preaching that for years. They also, and other studies list here, talk about circle hooks being the best for survival but point out hooking and landing fish is nominal using them. Why not require only circle hooks?

And CA: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:6-OMi...=clnk&cd=19

Very little here about barbless hooks except pointing out the regulation.

I never said barbless is a bad thing, nor have I disputed the fact that barbless hooks hurt fish less than barbed. I have to say these links are weak in proving beyond a doubt that barbless hooks should be the law anywhere- there has to be better places on the net- studies- results. I was looking this afternoon when you posted this and found the same sites using google.

We are basically on the same page... except I don't think barbless hooks benefits trout enough to make it a law. Like alot of this material says- education in release techniques, ie. keeping the fish out of the water too long and mishandling, is more important than regulating hooks.

[Don]

My question is why do you need a barbed hook? I grant that I use barbed flies. I don't go through all my boxes and crimp down prematurely. I do, however, when I am getting a hot bite and catching alot of fish off a good fly, take the time and crimp down the barb in all nonregualtion areas as well. I can catch alot more fish that way and the fly doesn't get caught in the net as much. I hope nobody feels the need of the barb just from a sporting point of view. But on the other hand, I dont feel that a barbed hook is devastaing enough to cause debate unless bait fishing.

From what I hear in AR no barb areas, If you are respectable to game wardens, they will normally respect back any attempt to crimp back a hook barb. I've heard stories that when fisherman get too "responsive", the game warden can stick the hook into a piece of nylon and almost always pull thread for a ticket. Therefore, please be respectful to the warden and at least indicate how and that you made your best effort to crimp down your barb.

Good Fishin' Folks,.....Don