Presidential Visit?

[Wayne SW/MO]

I've never seen any sources that put any kind of a number or percentage figure on how many of the people we've killed were foreign terrorists

I haven't either Al, but we both know there are some, and there were terrorist there before, a camp in north eastern Iraq, Nibal living in Baghdad, etc. I don't see any figures that there are any in Afghanistan either. The difference between giving them safe haven, and giving them assistance has to be noted.

We are there and you agree we need to finish. If all parties would quit giving are enemies hope, the process would probably move faster. I don't think there is any doubt that Al Qaeda is probably responsible for the IED's, which gives us our casualties. I don't think Saddam was above slipping them whatever they needed to help them get at us and that fear has now transfered to Iran.

No one can avoid the fact that Saddam had WMDs, he treated the inspectors as if he still did, the inspectors couldn't account for the ones they knew he had, Wilson inadvertently proved they were probably looking for Yellow Cake, and the list goes on.

The consequences of losing the battle against Muslim extremist will overshadow any fears we had concerning the Third Reich or communism.

GF, I've fished with Al and its a good experience, but we don't talk politics.

[MTM]

One thing I think about a lot is that people from here have no idea how those people think or what they believe. It would be very hard for Americans to understand what goes on in there minds. That to me is the biggest problem in this issue. Because you do not understand what they believe and just go by what you believe you think so much differently that there isn't a clue on your part.

Do you know that they think nothing of teaching there children how to hate from berth?

Do you understand that they would kill your children and think nothing of it?

They believe that if they give there lives they go to heaven and have all the good things.

They also see weakness as something to spit on.

And pulling out in there minds is Weakness on our part.

They thought the election showed weekness on our parts. They loved it.

You need to be there and see things that are done to people and try and understand what they are thinking. I know you won't believe it.

My opinion is that the Democrats are in power now and will get what they want to. I belive that in the end it will come back to bite them hard. We will see.

One other point I would like to make. Afer talking to many Vet's at the VA hospital there feeling is the John Merta and John Kerry have used up any respect they had coming from serving in the Armed Services. I feel the same way. Ron

[gonefishin]

One thing I think about a lot is that people from here have no idea how those people think or what they believe. It would be very hard for Americans to understand what goes on in there minds. That to me is the biggest problem in this issue. Because you do not understand what they believe and just go by what you believe you think so much differently that there isn't a clue on your part.

Ron: What you are saying is most generally right. Most people tend to judge others by their own beliefs. If a person believes in mercy then they think others believe in mercy. People tend to think it is a birthright of all humans to believe as they do. These people who believe this way would of course be incorrect. We americans only need to read some of our own history to see where this very thing you are talking about has, to use your words, "bit us hard" several times in the past. The people we are dealing with today do they same thing. They judge us by their beliefs of which Mercy is not a part of.

The only way to deal with terrorisim is absolute resolve because, just like Japan in WWII they understand nothing else. Japan would not quit until they understood that if they did not lay down their arms and leave us alone we were going to wipe them out of existance. Is this something we, Americans wanted to do? No. It was what we had to do when we when our hand was forced. With the Japanese we, the American people, showed absolute resolve and refused to show fear in the face of the enemy. We did what we had to and we won. Right or wrong the American public was not resolved to win in Vietnam and we didn't.

There are a lot of good and decent Muslems in the world just as there are a lot of good Japanese and Germans. During WWII we just had to deal with the extremists. In this discussion we are referring to extremists not the decent people.

We have to decide if we want to win this war on terrorisim. If we arent willing to have the same absolute resolve with the terrorists today that we did with the Japanese then we are not going to win this war and we will never again be safe in our own country. I may be wrong and I hope that I am but I am afraid that last Nov 7 we showed that we are not resolved to winning. I hope the people put in power realize they were wrong, realize these people have to be dealt with, swallow their pride and take care of business. As of right now however, I am afraid that our lack of resolve is going to 'Bite Us Really Hard'.

[Wayne SW/MO]

just like Japan in WWII they understand nothing else.

Exactly, and it was a time that we faced dedicated suicide military men. Truman ordered what everyone knew was a horrific strike, one that would kill thousands of men, women and children. Truman had 2 choices it was believed, drop Big Boy and Little Boy, or suffer an estimated 1 million Americans killed in the invasion. He chose to save Americans in a situation where he had to chose. I contrast, we throw soldiers in prison for putting panties on the bad guys heads.

[Al Agnew]

Gonefishin', sorry if I jumped to a conclusion there, I was going on your equating me with the people who were against the Doolittle raid.

And I wish I WAS a young feller. Wayne can tell you I'm not (just not as old as he is--bwa ha)

Look guys, I don't disagree with you on anything about the necessity of fighting the terrorists, the dangers they present, the things they believe. The only thing I disagree with you on is whether this is the battle we're fighting in Iraq. We KNEW that al Qaeda was being sheltered in Afghanistan, that they were using the country as a training ground with the full support of the Taliban. We may or may not have known for sure that Saddam was trying to develop WMDs, and it was no more than a possibility that, if he had them, he would be willing to furnish them to al Qaeda. You couldn't find anybody in the intelligence community who disagreed on Afghanistan. You could find, if you looked, plenty who disagreed on the extent of the danger that Saddam posed.

But that's neither here nor there. Like I said, for whatever reason we really went into Iraq, it's done, and the thing now is to decide what to do next. What we're doing isn't working very well. And none of us here on this board are going to solve the problem...it's just interesting to talk about and hear others' views.

[gonefishin]

Gonefishin', sorry if I jumped to a conclusion there, I was going on your equating me with the people who were against the Doolittle raid.

And I wish I WAS a young feller. Wayne can tell you I'm not (just not as old as he is--bwa ha)

Look guys, I don't disagree with you on anything about the necessity of fighting the terrorists, the dangers they present, the things they believe. The only thing I disagree with you on is whether this is the battle we're fighting in Iraq. We KNEW that al Qaeda was being sheltered in Afghanistan, that they were using the country as a training ground with the full support of the Taliban. We may or may not have known for sure that Saddam was trying to develop WMDs, and it was no more than a possibility that, if he had them, he would be willing to furnish them to al Qaeda. You couldn't find anybody in the intelligence community who disagreed on Afghanistan. You could find, if you looked, plenty who disagreed on the extent of the danger that Saddam posed.

But that's neither here nor there. Like I said, for whatever reason we really went into Iraq, it's done, and the thing now is to decide what to do next. What we're doing isn't working very well. And none of us here on this board are going to solve the problem...it's just interesting to talk about and hear others' views.

I agree with you in the above. I am not on here to start a fight with anyone. Least of all a fellow fisherman. You are right we here on OAF are not going to solve this problem. I was/am just trying to discuss what I feel is a potentially serious problem.

No kidding Wayne. It is a biaarre world for sure.