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[Chief Grey Bear]

I don't think you fully understand just what is happening here.

It has nothing to do with who is raising what but who is the controlling authority.

The Republican controlled legislature want to take, against the will of the citizens of this state, the control away from the MDC, who also oppose, and give it to the Dept. Of Ag, who don't want it and have no idea what to do with it due to the fact they have no one with any knowledge of deer.

Then you have the fact that this move is in direct violation of the Constitution of the State of Missouri. And we all know what we think of those that blatantly violate the Constitution. But oddly enough, there has not been so much as a peep when those with an R next to their name do it.

[jdmidwest]

Was it really against the will of the people of the state or a group of special interest people that was pushing this? I did not see a vote on a ballot or participate in any election that wanted my view on the matter.

I know at some of the meetings, the ones that wanted the MDC to control it overruled the ones that were for the Dept of Ag. Of course the meetings were held at MDC offices with MDC armed agents controlling the meetings. At least that is what went on locally.

The only reason it is considered political is the fact that the ruling party of elected officials was the ones trying to put it over on the Dept. of Ag.

Trout are a different situation, they are raised from native stock, and released into the wild. They are wildlife in all sense of the meaning, Captive deer are being raised with genetic manipulation from other captive deer much like cattle. They are kept in pens and hunted in pens. They are not to be released into the "wild". They are not wildlife any more, just livestock.

[Chief Grey Bear]

You are exactly right about the small group of special interest pushing this. And that is exactly why there was no vote. Had there been, it would have been soundly defeated.

Are you saying for the record that the MDC intimidated the public with armed agents? And that Dept. of Ag was forced to publicly state that they did not want control because of MDC scare tactics?

Cattle were domesticated thousands of years ago. They was never a wild population of cattle in the Western Hemisphere. Deer not so much. Big difference.

Again you are right in that they are not to be released. But they do and they escape. But make no mistake, genetic manipulation is not the definition of livestock.

[Tim Smith]

I know at some of the meetings, the ones that wanted the MDC to control it overruled the ones that were for the Dept of Ag. Of course the meetings were held at MDC offices with MDC armed agents controlling the meetings. At least that is what went on locally.

Dude. Get a grip.

[jdmidwest]

Livestock have been cross bred and genetically manipulated for positive traits for hundreds of years. They have been domesticated and tamed much like the deer farmers are doing with the deer in the farms now. Deer are being bred for their size and antler growth. And they are being domesticated somewhat to make them easier to handle and transfer. They remove the antlers before the rut to prevent them from harming each other. They artificially inseminate the does to bring in better blood lines instead of just letting them run around with any old buck. They are fed great diets and kept stress free to insure they grow to their full potential.

Dogs, cows, pigs, sheep, cats, horses, goats, chickens, turkeys, etc all come from wild stock at one time. And they are all managed by the Dept. of Ag. as a farming venture. And yes, all domestic farm animals have been genetically altered by breeding to get desired traits to make them more valuable.

What if one day a deer breeder actually comes across a deer that is resistant to CWD, Blue Tongue, or other disease that infects the wild herds? Where does all of the research on deer actually take place? Probably on a captive deer.

[SpoonDog]

I think one could argue the definition of "captive deer" would require them to be kept separated from the wild herd. CWD is spread by direct contact between wild and penned deer. The fact that sportsmen are shooting CWD infected deer outside the canned hunting outfits indicates the pens aren't 100% effective at keeping wild deer out or frankendeer in - the captive part of "captive deer " isn't being met.

MDC is charged with protecting the state's fish & wildlife. If a private landowner is caught dumping chemicals or effluent which harm wildlife, it's MDCs job to prosecute. What these canned hunting operations have done is essentially biological pollution - introducing a pathogen which will negatively impact the state's deer herd - that MDC is charged with managing. I don't see any other state agency with that specific jurisdiction, and I don't see how private property rights would trump enforcement.

[SpoonDog]

Part of me doesn't understand what difference it makes - if you're claiming ownership of the captive deer,they're your responsibility. If the fence is inadequate, if they're escaping, if they're diseased and infecting wil deer - you're on the hook. I know companies are billed for fish kills based on the number, species and size of dead animals, maybe deer breeders should be footing the bill for MDCs cwd eradication efforts.

It just seems to me the breeders want all the benefits of running these outfits without any of the costs...they don't want to be held accountable. And by moving jurisdiction to a more sympathetic audience in the Ag Department, the party of personal responsibility is doing everything in their power -and exceeding the state Constitution - to make sure breeders won't be held accountable.

[ozark trout fisher]

Yeah, I think both of your posts sum this up fairly well, SpoonDog. Even if you could argue that captive deer are livestock, they are capable of escaping and interacting (in terms of diseases) with wild deer, so there's your problem. We don't have wild cattle or chickens to worry about if those escape, and that's a key difference. Frankly, if these types of operations had less issues in the past holding onto their animals and causing the potential for the spread of CWD, there might be less pushback against them now.

For all the effort to tie it into the fair chase vs. canned hunts debate, that's just beside the point. If the disease issue wasn't there, I don't care if some rich dude wants to pay big money to "hunt" deer. It's just not what this is about.

[Tim Smith]

I can see part of JD's point. Hatchery trout are more or less domesticated. Deer could be as well.

But that's not really a good thing.

The attitude that wildlife is somehow a "crop" pretty well spells the end of wildlife. Heck, while you're breeding those deer to be bigger, you might as well go in and re-engineer their genes, yes? Give 'em great big orange bullseyes on the side so they're easier to hit. Or on a more serious note, take out their myostatin so they look like a bulked up bull in Pamplona (something we've already done with numerous species). Mess with things long enough and at some point you don't have a creature that's independent, you've got a moocher that's not adapted to its environment and can't survive on it's own.

As for the disease issue, it's incredible to me how consistently agriculture claims there will be no escapes or contacts from production animals and how that's not true every single time.

Think we're ever going to get damages back for feral hogs? Never going to happen.

[Al Agnew]

Spoondog, one point of fact that has little to do with the subject...MO DNR has responsibility for prosecuting most kinds of pollution. MDC doesn't, it has responsibility for wildlife and forest resources.

And one other point I'd like to make. Insuring the owners of the captive facilities are "on the hook" for escapees is not the most important thing. The most important thing is attempting to make sure that either the escapes don't happen in the first place, or that the captive critters are not diseased in the first place. In other words, you don't punish the farmer for leaving the barn door open, you try to insure he doesn't leave it open. Once cwd gets into the wild deer herd, the damage is done and you can't undo it no matter how much you punish the guy who let it happen. MDC is attempting to insure it doesn't happen.