what happened?

[Brian Sloss]

You are right on the money in your analysis in my mind. As I have said, I think the area above dam 3 would make an excellent c&r area because the boundries are easily defined by the dams and it is a lower traffic area as far as boats and fishermen are concerned. But anything to keep more and bigger fish swiming should be a win-win for everyone. The vast majority of the water would still have plenty of opportunity for a fish for the frying pan for those so inclined.

[Crippled Caddis]

Brian---as long as we avoid politics you and I are 'preaching outta the same Book'.;o) I think we both can probably live with that!

As for your concept of setting aside the stretch from Dam 1 to Dam 3 the 'Old Man of the Norfork', Chuck Davidson, and I had a lengthy conversation about just that sometime in the mid 80s after I bought my property on the S. Fork. It seems he and someone who represented AGFC (most probably Mark Oliver) held a meeting in Mammoth Spring to propose just that in the late '70s/early '80s. His version of the response was that they barely escaped being ridden out of town on a rail AFTER being tarred and feathered. Unfortunately the same mindset seems to still prevail in the local area. For quite a few years I've been attempting to plant the seeds of awareness conserning the benefits of attracting the demographic niche of our society that can best afford the pursuit of trophy trout. Largely to little avail. If I could just persuade the city fathers to take a journey to see the results of marketing the spring creeks of Pennsylvania and Montana then the possibilities inherent in the most fertile spring creek between those two disparate geographical locations would become obvious. At this point I'm prepared to change the thrust of my efforts by appealing to the pecuniary interests of the outfitters and others that profit directly from the river through the benefits pointed out in my previous post. Unfortunately my energy flags as I age and I find myself more easily discouraged and prone to thinking that those who are blind get what they deserve and are unworthy of continued effort. But come cooler weather when my own predatory instincts once more ramp up to meet the season I'll gain new energy. I know the person who is now running the campground at the Gooseneck quite well and I have printed out my own previous post in order to illustrate to him that he's 'leaving money on the table' as currently he leaves the campground open to fisherman without charge in the Winter months. I need help from an energetic young 'go-getter' in interesting the local outfitters in extending their season and increasing their profit margins. Wanta volunteer? CC

[RiverRunner]

Its really sad how the Spring River is treated by the majority of people who use it. I would say that 98% of people who fish that river keep their full limit each time they reach it and plenty of others see no problem keeping every trout they catch no matter how many it is. I've seen people going from place to place picking up stringers they had stashed so that they could take as many fish home as possible. I think that I can say with a great deal of accuracy that most fisherman in Arkansas are meat hunters. For a lot of people, catching a big fish just means more meat. There are plenty of people out there that would think nothing of eating a 10 lbs bass or 10 lbs trout. Its just the difference between "meat" fishing and "sport" fishing.

Before anyone jumps my case, I do keep a few fish, esp Crappie and Sauger, but it always gets eaten and I never fill a freezer up. From what I've seen, most of the trout that go home and get frozen usually end up with freezer burn and get thrown out. It seems to me that people don't realize how nasty stocker trout really taste until they cook them. I think eventually the AGFC will have to decide if it wants to continue to simply dump fish into the Spring so that the locals can take them right back out. Anyone who has been around there very much knows that the crowd that utilizes the Spring for the most part is local and is fishing for meat and does not bring anything into the community. The big argument against any C&R regs would be that people in the area depend on the river for food. In my opinion, depending on trout stocked into the river by the state for food is nothing more than welfare.

I would like to see C&R somewhere on the Spring, but considering AGFC doesn't enforce the laws that are on the books now, it would be futile.

RANT OVER!!!

[rps]

I do not mean to criticize any one posting here, but I want to make a point about "catch and release" areas. Who decided that catch and release areas for trout, especially those seasonal ones designed to protect fish while they go through the spawning motions, need to be single barbless hook? The answer is the trout activists - translate to the organized fly fishermen. TU. Men and women with the time and money to spend on expensive gear, join clubs, etc. Now I know that not all fly fishermen are wealthy. However, the demographics to prove my point here exist. Just look where the fly fishing equipment is advertised and you will see my point. Ask yourself how come so many doctors and dentists are among the group.

I admire and support their desire to protect the fish. Catch and release areas with sane regulations make good sense. Minimum flow requirements to oxygenate and cool water in the summer makes good sense. I support them in these efforts.

However to declare the area as single barbless hook only is elitist and turns the area into a playground for a wealthy few supported by all our tax and license dollars. A more rational solution that better serves the same purpose is to declare the area as catch and release, barbless hooks only, with no plastic baits, no san juan worms, and no artificial egg baits. This would reduce the number of gut hooked fish (and don't tell me that fishing egg bait imitations does not cause gut hooks), reduce the time out of water to free the fish, avoid the harvesting of the mature fish, and still allow someone with a Zebco 33 and a spinner or Rapala to fish.

Again, my opinion is not aimed at anyone personally. It is instead merely an observation based on many years of watching the White River system.

[Crippled Caddis]

rps wrote:

<Who decided that catch and release areas for trout, especially those seasonal ones designed to protect fish while they go through the spawning motions, need to be single barbless hook?>

Fisheries biologists.

Too many studies have convincingly demonstrated that a single barbles hook is the safest and quickest way to release fish with minimal damage and time out of water to label the practice as elitest. It's simply better for the fish---and what's the point of having catch and release regulations if they are not implemented in the best interest of the fish?

Nor does the practice create a hardship on those who wish to fish with artificials other than flies. It is no more difficult to replace trebles with single barbless hooks than it is to pinch down the barbs on trebles enough to make them pass the ofttimes draconian tests used by some wardens.

I'm a flyfisherman as well as any other legal form of fishing and I've enjoyed pricking the bubble of elitism for many years within the flyfishing ranks, but I've also noticed that elitism takes many forms and it is hardly restricted to flyfishermen.

Art assumes many forms in fishing and the rare baitfishing expert is as deadly as any predator. His is as much art as the best flyflinger or hardwarec tosser and, frankly, far more effective. Indeed it is fortunate for the rest that the true baitfishing expert is a rare breed!

[RiverRunner]

I would disagree with the generalization that C&R areas are for flyfishers only. Before I took up the long rod, the C&R areas were the areas that I spent the majority of my fishing time. I probably caught more fish when my primary trout fishing tackle was an ultralight spinning rod and a maribou jig. For me, you can catch more fish on artificials than you can by fishing bait just because of the time factor involved with baiting up and retying due to swallowed hooks. Also, you will catch larger fish on artificials because most artificial lures resmeble some type of bait fish or forage, as opposed to corn or power bait which resembles nothing that occurs naturally in the stream.

It is possible to use bait and not kill many fish if one knows what they're doing and is careful. I've caught many trout on bait in years past and I would say that 98% of the fish I caught survived with little trauma. However, I was careful and I rarely took the fish out of the water and would always cut the line on the few fish that swallowed the hook. Unfortunatley, most of the bait fishing angling public that only fishes a few times a year is not so careful. I see a lot of them using towels to handle fish and most let them flop around in the boat. Also, most people will kill a fish to get the 2 cent hook out of its gut.

As far as fly fisherman all being elitist snobs, I used to have that opinion until I investigated further and decided to take it up as a new challenge. Yes, its true that a lot of doctors and lawyers like to fly fish, and you can spend a lot of money to get geared up. But, most of the people I've found who enjoy this sport are simply sportsmen. The fly club I'm in has some doctors and lawyers, but I would say that most are working people like me. I would also venture to say that fly fishing is a real bargain compared to tournament bass fishing, when you look at the cost of a huge bass boat and gear. You can spend $60,000 to start fishing tournaments. I think I spent $300.00 to start fly fishing and you can spend a whole lot less than that and still be in good shape. I think the debate is not bait fisherman vs fly fisherman, but meat hunters vs sportsmen. You don't have to fly fish to be a sportsman.

[Danoinark]

I primarily use the fly rod because I like the challenge. I don't own a rod that cost more than 200 dollars and my reels are even cheaper. I would be classed as anything other than a purist. I think elitism is simply an attitude and I really don't see that much anymore. As to doctors and lawyers most I know own big Rangers and never picked up a flyrod. All forms of angling whether its a fly rod or conventional tackle certainly has its place and I would never critize anyone for the way they fish. I do feel that we are rapping our streams, whether the fisherman is using the long rod, spinning tackle and or baitfishing. That debate could go on long because its not just the taking of fish that is causing destruction its all the other variables from streamside development to toxic poisons being dumped into the streams. Its my opinion that fisheries biologist have suggested the single barbless hook for C and R areas simply because after years of research its determined that fish mortality is less. As to treble hooks how does it help you catch a trout any better than a single hook?

Dano

[Crippled Caddis]

RR wrote:

<For me, you can catch more fish on artificials than you can by fishing bait----you will catch larger fish on artificials because most artificial lures resmeble some type of bait fish or forage, as opposed to corn or power bait which resembles nothing that occurs naturally in the stream.>

You must never have encountered a true baitfishing artist RR. While you're fishing an artificial that resemble the fishes natural diet the artist is using the real thing and putting it directly into the fishes most secret lairs. A true expert baitfisherman would NEVER consider things like corn and powerbait---those are strictly for amatuers who know no better than to wad it on an oversized hook below a sinker that could serve as an anchor for an aircraft carrier and lob it into just about anywhere that is wet with enough disturbance to flush fish into hiding for hundreds of feet. The expert will approach his quarry with more care than someone trying to stalk turkeys and is more apt to slide his unweighted bait silently into the water far upstream and allow the current to tumble it into his chosen target zone exactly as the fish expects it to be delivered. He knows his target better than you know your own children, their habits, habitat and food preferences.

If you know one baitfishing expert in your life you'll be fortunate. They are few and far between and a secretive lot. If he allows you to learn from him you will be incredibly lucky. CC

[Brian Sloss]

cc,

I'm kept pretty busy with the 11 Point, but if you are ever going to talk with the campground guy or any other person involved with Spring river issues, I'd be happy to come along and throw in my 2 cents. Particularly in the winter when I have more free time.

[rps]

cc:

With respect, please identify scientific studies that compare the kill rate of single barbless hooks to barbless trebles. Flies versus bait, especially as practiced by the I want my hook back so I'll pull until it rips out crowd, that is a no brainer. I am careful when fishing bait, but I will acknowledge the risk to the fish is higher with bait. When I fish for trophy browns, I am ambivalent about the act. (I do not use powerbait or corn. I fish sculpin, crawfish, and crickets)

I have not seen a study with control groups, post catch follow up, etc. that does what you state. All the studies I have seen compare bait fishing or include bait fishing in the comparison. Even those tend to be anecdotal as they lack control groups and post catch follow up.

If anyone has funded a study such as I describe, it probably was TU ... and that leads to other problems.

Your point about modifying baits is not entirely accurate. You can put a single hook on a spoon or a spinner and catch nearly as many. Of course, you can't buy them in Walmart where the majority of the fishing world shops. As far as modifying a suspending rogue - you can't do that very well - the single hook at the rear throws the suspend off. If you put two hooks on you break the law. If you try a single hook at the middle there is a substantial decrease in hook ups.

river runner:

I acknowledge all that you say, but if the debate is between meat hunters and catch and release types, the regulations I suggest will solve the problem. The regulations do not have to be drawn to exclude all but the fly fishermen. BTW, I characterize single barbless hook catch and release areas as fly fishing areas because I have tried to fish Rim Shoals and the catch and release areas of the Norfolk from my boat. Between the River Runs Through It wannabes that stand in the channel and the actively insulting ones who tell me I can't use spin gear in the catch and release area it is de facto fly fishermen only.

Danoinark

From all that you post, you are known as a gentleman and an example. I completely believe you when you say you fly fish because of the challenge. I suspect you haven't intentionally killed a fish in a long time. I am afraid I did not make myself clear enough in my original post. My point wasn't that allowing catch and release with barbless trebles makes things easier or harder for the individual fishermen. My point was that a much larger segment of the fishing public has equal access to a natural resource we all fund if my suggested regulations are implemented. I am sure you tell the truth about the fly rod costing less than $200. In fly rod circles that is a very modest rod. That is my point. In fly fishing circles a $200 dollar rod is considered modest.

Consider the fact that the majority of fishermen buy Berkley Lightning rods or equivalents at $25 - $50. They spool with Trilene or Stren and carry lead to sink the line instead of a different line. They buy Mepps spinners or some such to use as artificials for trout. Most of these people are law abiding and buy licenses for the same price as you and I. A regulation that prohibits them from using their gear without any scientific basis is simply inappropriate.

Lastly, the fish and game departments did not respond to scientific proof when they began to set aside single barbless hook areas. They responded to political pressure from activist fly fishermen who wanted trophies, who wanted spawning areas protected, and who told them the "only way" to do this was to set up catch and release areas with single barbless hook rules. Ultimately, anyone who believes fish and game bureaucracies are anything other than political is kidding themselves.

Once again - with no intention of disrespecting those here - I assert that single barbless hook regulations as enacted now are not based upon scientific fact and that their creation is elitist and serves a small minority at public expense.