Are you trespassing?

[crappiefisherman]

ALL, good points but let me add some thoughts.In an above read statement it was said 2 fishermen were 3/4 mile above mdc acsess.I think the landowner doesnt want people on this stretch of stream period.If you enter a stream at an access point does it mean you have to go down stream?Im betting when he bought this stretch of land people had been visiting this cave for many moons.And im sure the good ole boy network(locals) all dont party at his stretch.I would love to say i owned a section of land with a beautiful fish filled stream that ran through it.and I would love to see people enjoying it.Remember when the creek rises the gravel will refill the four wheeler tracks.It is a state law that vehicles arent allowed in the streams and if they get there there must be some kind of road there.So block it off, (that is if its on your land )Put an add in the paper asking nicely for cooperation on this matter.Ask politely for a trash pickup, or some kind of sensible matter to keep your name good.Dont stand on a bluff and yell, it just makes you look like a bad ole boy.

[brownieman]

he allows anyone to fish up thru it or float down thru it...he does not mind...the can was the kicker...if not for that he would not have said a word.

He has a gate entering his property...locks have been shot...chains have been cut...his house has been robbed...you have no idea the problems he has contended with.

he has done everything within the law to avoid these problems...he is only on the property on the week-ends...works in the city.

He is very open and receptive when it comes to the river...just tired of picking up trash and vandalism.

[crappiefisherman]

I think id sell.Maybe the locked gate is the problem. Was the acess blocked previously to the new owner.How long has he owned this land?Is this area prone to vandalism.Maybe he bought someone elses headache and thinks its unfair, The house breakin is way out of line .This info is just enough, but good ole boys arent crooks, they are phone co guys, auto parts salesmen, Hard working men and women who love life and enjoy the outdoors.Maybe they feel cheated as to not have acess to water they may have swam since they were children with their parents.

[brownieman]

what I mean by the good ole boy network can be anyone involved in the local politics due to wealth, family, being a native of the community, influential, many many things...even down to a peon like me, lol.

Can exist in and at any level of the business and political world...I know lots of just good old boys, lol

[gonefishin]

I always ask the land owner before fishing on his property. I don't think, tho that a person should have to ask for permission to wade or fish from a small boat on any stream as long as the person stays within the confines of the stream bed. It just bothers me to think of anyone owning the free flowing water.

[creek wader]

I think most of us agree that landowners should have the right to control who goes on thier property (land). The question is the water. ... Would someone fishing around your crappie bed and boat dock on the LOZ from a boat, be the same thing? That water doesn't even flow. I realize that would be apple and oranges.

[jcoberley]

I think all of this would just go away on its own if US fishermen would have a little more resepct for the land owners land and not trash or distroy it. I would say if you see a bottle, can, worm box or so on just pick it up. Soon it would be clean and the land owner would be happy. Plus we would have a nice looking place to fish!!! JMO

[Al Agnew]

To answer the question about the landowner owning the land under the stream...ALL landowners on streams other than the "navigable in fact" rivers (mainly Missouri and Mississippi River, as I said before) own the land under the stream. It isn't just the landowner on the Osage Fork, and I'm quite sure that it isn't true that his deed says so and nobody else's does. If you own the land on one side of a stream, you own it to the middle of the stream bed. If you own on both sides, you own the entire stream bed. Which, in the past, gave landowners the rights to mine gravel out of the river bottoms with impunity, until there were some controls put on it. I know this to be true not only because I've spent a bit of time studying the law, but also because I own a couple of acres on the St. Francis, and own it to the middle of the stream. It's only through the courts that the public has gotten the right to touch your land on larger creeks and rivers in order to use the water that the public, and not you, owns.

There is no doubt that a large part of the problem with stream access is in people trashing the traditional accesses and otherwise mistreating the private property adjoining them. It seems that law enforcement is not willing or able to deal with this stuff, and it's getting worse if for no other reason than that there are more people using the accesses and thus more bad apples. I don't know what, realistically, is the solution to that problem. I do know that it will only recede when enough people care deeply enough about the resource. The problem is as bad or worse in many other states, but not as bad in some. Montana, where I spend a lot of time, has less trouble with the accesses along its trout streams, perhaps because there is a thriving business based on trout fishing on them, with plenty of people using them that care about their condition. California, on the other hand, has got to be the worst place I've seen for people simply trashing long sections of streams.

[brownieman]

I always ask the land owner before fishing on his property. I don't think, tho that a person should have to ask for permission to wade or fish from a small boat on any stream as long as the person stays within the confines of the stream bed. It just bothers me to think of anyone owning the free flowing water.

IMO, no matter how the law reads or is inerpreted...what troubles gf I believe is what bothers most.

Even though the landowner may legally own the land under the water...the water itself is free flowing...the right to use this "free flowing water" is what is the question here, the gray area so to speak.

There is not a fix to this problem that I can see...many disputes have to be settled in a courtroom due to this...and depending how influential you are within the "Good Ole Boy Network" within the county you reside...well...you know what I am saying.

Quite a tangled web we have weaved

[Chief Grey Bear]

I know I am most likely gonna get in trouble with this post, but I have stayed silent on this subject so as not to get in trouble. But here goes.

First let me show you a piece that I have copy and pasted from a web sight that was posted to this forum.

"If you're searching for trout, our streams are all the further you need to look to find trophy rainbows and browns, with many exceeding five pounds. These spring-fed waters remain cold year-round. Since we limit the number of anglers on the stream, you'll find yourself fishing in peaceful seclusion, fishing at your leisure. All of our waters are strictly catch and release, allowing us to continue to develop our wild trophy trout fishery. With the diversity our waters have to offer, we can challenge the most seasoned angler while still providing the beginner a perfect opportunity for that first trout!"

Now the problem I have is right in the very first sentence. It has always been my belief and always will be that nobody "owns" the waterways of Missouri or any state for that matter. I'll tell you right now that if I accessed that stream at public access point, meaning any public roadway or such, and I walked up or down stream and did not get out of the stream, in my opinion they have no right to demand that I leave.

Now, with the help of someone here, I have a pic of a sign that posted along some waterways in Newton County. I have tried to post pics here and just can't do it. I would like to send this pic to someone that would it to this topic.

I will tell you what the sign says:

NOTICE

Missouri Streams and Rivers are Public Waters

State law enforcement agencies patrol this waterway for your protection and safety

All laws are strictly enforced

Then it has the logos of the MDC, Missouri Hiway Patrol and the State Sheriff Association at the bottom.

Now I don't believe you can access someone property to access the waterway. If you don't have permission for the land owner, you must access from a public way.

IMO, no matter how the law reads or is inerpreted...what troubles gf I believe is what bothers most.

Even though the landowner may legally own the land under the water...the water itself is free flowing...the right to use this "free flowing water" is what is the question here, the gray area so to speak.

Here is another twist. Does the land owner own the land under the public roadway if he owns the land on both sides of the road?