Are you trespassing?

[Crippled Caddis]

<Does the land owner own the land under the public roadway if he owns the land on both sides of the road?>

Chief: I'm NOT an attorney so please take my opinions with a full shaker of salt!

I think in the case of attempting to compare the public waters with the road right of ways that you are making the classic mistake of equating apples with oranges. The streams of the state are in the 'public domain'. That is they belong to the people through universally accepted common law. The people, through the entity of 'the state', hold title to the road right of ways through grant, fee simple or by exercise of emminent domain. That may be completely wrong, vastly over-simplified or only confusing---it is simply the way I have long understood the smokescreen of legal verbiage.

[creek wader]

I wade/float/fish many questionable streams. I believe the law refers to it as "navigable waterways". A few years ago a farmer tried to run me off of a rock wing dike on the Missouri river. I knew I was in the right but, I had crossed 20 yds of his property to get there, (should of got there via boat). Anyway, I knew I had tresspassed to get there. So, I respected his wishes and left. Plenty of river to fish elsewhere. I enter the smaller streams on public property, ie bridges, mdc access, and low water crossings. I always catch and release, do not litter, or mess with any of their property. I have not had any confrontations with any other landowners but, will avoid confrontations and respect their wishes and leave. It's not worth the hassle. I've owned land and had a problem with hunters and people sneaking in to fish my ponds. I always was courtious and adult about it, and expect the same in return. It's an issuse that the MDC needs to address and make it black and white to avoid any confusion. Just my opinion.

[mosouthpaw]

chief: public roadways are usually built in an easement.

personally i think that floating through a stream should be legal regardless of property. Wading though is a grey area, id probably settle with high water marks or if no visable high water mark exists 3-4 ft past waters edge. I do however think that a few bad landowners and more then a few bad citizens have screwed it all up for everyone. People who litter, mistreat others property should also lose their rights to the use.

Wildlife and Fish are property of the State. With little exceptions the people should be free to pursue them within legal means as long as it laws are followed. Trespass Laws do need to be defined further, and I do think fellow outdoorsman need to help patrol as well. If you see someone abusing the land and fish you have a duty to report the infraction(s)

[Chief Grey Bear]

chief: public roadways are usually built in an easement.

Well, not technically. The land is purchased by said entity. That being state, county or city. An easement would be that someone gave them permission to build across their land without ever tansfering the deed to said land.

I do agree with the rest of your post.

[Guest kevinkirk]

Looking at a map of Table Rock Lake, it appears there is public land all around the lake at the waters edge? IS that true. I was looking for places to hunt on GOOGLE EARTH etc. and wonder what the shaded area along the shoreline means. Is this the line between the take line and the waterline?

Can you duck hunt all over the lake? Set up out on the points etc. and duck and goose hunt with decoys?

[Guest kevinkirk]

As i posted earlier, I am buying some land along a river. It is navigatable according to the law. I dont mind ppl walking in or floating in but when the river goes dry and they use trucks and four wheelers, shoot up all the bldgs and tear up the land, leaving trash, condoms and god knows what else scattered around fire pits, its bad.

The postion of access only changes depending on if you are the landowner or want to use it. hah...I have been on both sides. Its disgusting. I built some tree blinds and those are all shot up. Glad no one was in them at the time. What is with that.

There is public low water dam a mile and a half down stream from this property and on the weekends it sounds like a war down there. PPL go there and shoot off cheap military ammo. Lots of semi auto fire over and over and over. .I counted over 1,000 rounds in under 10 minutes once. WHERE are all those bullets going? Who knows. Most of those ppl dont care and are nuts.

I like to shooot too but good lord. I have been in war zones with less fire going on around me. Scares me to build fence etc. There is a fenced in sandpit with 8 foot chainlink around it and ppl climb over and fish it out every time its stocked. I give upon that. We wantto put a trailer out there but cant due to gunfire and crazies.

[petpipuppy]

Well, not technically. The land is purchased by said entity. That being state, county or city. An easement would be that someone gave them permission to build across their land without ever tansfering the deed to said land.

I do agree with the rest of your post.

I can't speak to MO regulations, but here's a link to Beaver Lake/COE policy regarding corp lands. I would generally suppose that the COE would have similar provision for COE lakes in other states...... ("Your mileage may vary>>>....") In reading some of the way older posts in this thread though, (ordered out of the cove???) I believe that a visit with the local COE commander could possibly result in a 'visit' from that entity to the marina owner...with potential for review of the marina's license to operate on the lake....???

http://www.swl.usace.army.mil/parks/beaver...ntguide2008.pdf

A partial excerpt:

"Land which is owned in fee by the government consists of land that surrounds the lake. The limits of fee land are defined by the Government Fee Take Line (GFTL). The GFTL consists of a straight line from monument to monument. The boundary markers, or monuments, are topped with a brass cap, which indicates the tract of land which was purchased from the land owner. Ownership of private land does not convey any exclusive rights to the use of adjoining public lands, or the lake. The general public can use public lands."

[Guest kevinkirk]

So in Kansas only the recognized navigational streams are public access.

What about Missouri?

How about Arkansas?

[Guest kevinkirk]

I owned a clear water pond in Kansas and had some smallmouth that were approaching kansas records. I caught them several times in excess of 25 inches long. All of a sudden, they were all gone after I went on vacation. How do you think that makes me feel? Do you think I wanted to ever let another soul fish in my pond? I never did get them back in there and sold it finally.

[Project Healing Waters]

Kevin,

That pond was (I assume) entirely surrounded by your property. Thus, the pond was yours to control access to or not. Flowing waterways are NOT the same deal. This difference is universally accepted in law dating back to the middle ages in Europe and in North America from the earliest settlers.

When you buy land along a stream, it's like buying land next to the highway. You cannot control what goes up/down the river. You cannot divert the water from the river for your private benefit. You can no more string a fence across the stream (even if you own both sides) than you could across a highway. And you cannot stand out there and harass people using the stream any more than you could stand by the highway and threaten people for driving by your house.

Imagine a car load of young ruffians cruising your neighborhood. So long as they do not break the law, nobody has a right to try to stop them and they have every right to drive around on public roadways. (cruising ordinances notwithstanding because they are questionably constitutional themselves, but on municipal streets the feds won't challenge them) Are you going to stand out there on the edge of your lawn and yell at them and threaten to shoot them, throw rocks at them, or call the police to report that there are some people driving down the road in front of your house that you WISH weren't there? I think not. It is just as unreasonable and ignorant for a property owner to think they can control who uses the stream running through or adjacent to their property.

But under NO CIRCUMSTANCE do I have a right to leave the stream and walk up into their yard without their permission. The line of demarcation is the mean high water mark...the historical spot where "high water" stops and flood water starts. In the encounter I recently had on the NFOW river, as soon as I told the landowner to leave me alone, he INSTINCTIVELY retreated (fast) off of the gravel bar and onto his GRASS (right above the mean high water mark). Then he wanted to stand there and argue with me about where the mean high water mark was. LMAO. He KNEW. He was bluffing and trying to bully people. You know why? He has a picnic table on the GRAVEL BAR that he enjoys sitting at in the evenings drinking beer and smoking combustible materials of a dubious nature. (pun intended) Floaters have, in the past, vandalized his picnic table. Ummmm...he's leaving a picnic table on PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE property. He has a right to do that because he owns the land to the center of the stream bed. BUT, he cannot keep the public from using that gravel bar by law. This is a CLASSIC case of how and why this conflict arises: a landowner over-reaching for his own enjoyment and stream users disprespecting private property. BOTH ARE WRONG. BOTH ARE ILLEGAL. Now I...fishing legally...wander along and get to deal with the bullying landowner. Well, I don't cotton to that kind of thing, myself. I didn't create the problem. I didn't make the problem worse. I am not a party to this long-standing feud over the picnic table and gravel bar. And it is ILLEGAL for him to harass me. So...unless he shows me a weapon...I ain't backing down. He threatened to call the cops. I said, "Please do. Somebody needs to explain the law to you because you are the one breaking the law." He didn't call.

On my way back down stream, he had 2 lawn chairs and a cooler of beer on the gravel bar. As I approached, he reached out his hand, apologized, and invited me to sit and have a beer with him. I accepted the offer of hospitality. Turns out he is a retired navy master chief frogman who had volunteered the use of his property for an upcoming Project Healing Waters trip to the river. LOL When he asked me, "So, what kind of work do you do?" and I said, "I'm disabled. But I am the regional coordinator and founder of the Project Healing Waters Fly Fishing program in the Ozarks..." I thought he was going to die of embarassment. LOL I drank two of his rare, imported beers and made a new "friend." I now have permission to use his HOUSE...let alone that gravel bar.

Food for thought.