Nail Knot Sinkage / Tip Sink

[Brian K. Shaffer]

OK Guys - I got a huge issue with this. Why is it that my nail know will sink in one days worth of fishing a brand new fly line ? Am I missing something ?

please help me - Brian

[Bill Butts]

OK Guys - I got a huge issue with this. Why is it that my nail know will sink in one days worth of fishing a brand new fly line ? Am I missing something ?

please help me - Brian

Brian,

First of all, what specific line are you using?

Second, was the knot a simple nail knot, or a needle-nail knot piercing the side of the line?

If either, did you apply any type of coating or sealer to the knot?

Or, was the connection something entirely different?

Will try to help you.

BB

[Guest flyfishBDS]

One simple point to sinkage, tips are skinny for presentation _ least amoung to bouyant stuff on the tip

a little water in the core, and its under the surface.

[Brian K. Shaffer]

Butts and FishBDS -

First of all, what specific line are you using? Rio Grand / Rio Anything

Second, was the knot a simple nail knot YES or a needle-nail knot piercing the side of the line?

If either, did you apply any type of coating or sealer to the knot? NO

Or, was the connection something entirely different? No L2L or loop to loops, yeck!

Will try to help you. BB

I can see where I am probably going wrong.. no additional glue to seal out water from getting in the tip as you mentioned FishBDS.

I can notice this within one days fishing a brand new line.. the only lines I really ever loved and didnt notice any problems with is old Orvis Wonderline and any style of XXD or XDP or GPX.

My current fly line does it real bad after just an hour of fishing.. perhaps the nail knot is just too big and has an existing problem I havent found at the knot allowing water in.

thanks for any help - Brian

[Bill Butts]

Butts and FishBDS -

First of all, what specific line are you using? Rio Grand / Rio Anything

Second, was the knot a simple nail knot YES or a needle-nail knot piercing the side of the line?

If either, did you apply any type of coating or sealer to the knot? NO

Or, was the connection something entirely different? No L2L or loop to loops, yeck!

Will try to help you. BB

I can see where I am probably going wrong.. no additional glue to seal out water from getting in the tip as you mentioned FishBDS.

I can notice this within one days fishing a brand new line.. the only lines I really ever loved and didnt notice any problems with is old Orvis Wonderline and any style of XXD or XDP or GPX.

My current fly line does it real bad after just an hour of fishing.. perhaps the nail knot is just too big and has an existing problem I havent found at the knot allowing water in.

thanks for any help - Brian

Brian~

I kinda wondered why you hadn't replied.

Thought maybe you solved the issued.

First of all, I agree with your "Yeck" to loop to loops, they are horrible though many have had shops rig their lines this way. I've never understood that, but that's another discussion.

My suggestion for trout and smallmouth is to connect a knotless tapered leader to your fly line with a five-wrap needle-nail knot. Then, apply a couple of drops of Zap or Zap-a-Gap to the knot and around the tip of the line where the leader protrudes. Zap is water-proof therefore sealing from moisture, as well as slightly enhancing the strength of the knot.

The needle-nail knot is also smoother passing thru your guides than a standard nail knot.

This has worked wonderfully for me for many years.

Hope you find it helpful.

[Brian K. Shaffer]

Yeah.. I am kinda try that Needle Knot.. I remember the Al Calucci story on how to do it.. but since I have the Shimazaki Leader splicing tool.. it should be just as easy. I will post back my findings.

The Calucci one had very little weight associated with it.. and I like that. The Shimazaki shows making a couple loops after bringing it thru the fly line.. thus making in a 5wt a pretty big knot I would imagine.

I will let you guys know - Brian

[Bill Butts]

Yeah.. I am kinda try that Needle Knot.. I remember the Al Calucci story on how to do it.. but since I have the Shimazaki Leader splicing tool.. it should be just as easy. I will post back my findings.

The Calucci one had very little weight associated with it.. and I like that. The Shimazaki shows making a couple loops after bringing it thru the fly line.. thus making in a 5wt a pretty big knot I would imagine.

I will let you guys know - Brian

Brian,

The biggest factor of bulk in the finished knot (when it is tied properly) is the diameter of the butt section of the tapered leader you select.

Trout leaders generally have .017 to .022 butts.

You will find some saltwater leaders as large as .029.

I quickly checked several websites and better-known catalogs and it is amazing to me the butt diameters are rarely stated.

If you're fishing Taney, especially with a lot of small stuff, with 3 to 5 wt. lines I would suggest staying in the range of .017 to .020.

Perhaps some time I could come down to Phil's on a flytying night and share how I do the needle-nail knot, adding flyline indicators to leaders, needle-nail knot for backing to flyline, etc. for anyone interested. I've seen only a handful of shops in the country that offer that nice smooth connection to backing.

If anyone is interested, let me know.

[Rusty]

Me... Me... Me. It's a long drive for me.

[Brian K. Shaffer]

I am all for that - a Butts fly tying class / featuring Striper and Bass flies.. and some knot tying and connection help on the side. Sometime mid Summer woul dbe best so as we can all plan on it.

Jeremy would be up for it too.. he ties some enormous wide assortment of flies.. not just trout / bass /saltwater stuff.

You know the Calucci knot I'm talking about BB -- I bet thats the one you're offering to share.

screaming reels - Brian

[Fox Statler]

Why don't you super-glue the leader in the fly line and not have a knot at all?? I have been doing it for nearly 20 years and it works fine. I would also suggest cutting off the first 2 to 4 foot of the fly line. It holds the leader higher.