Outside Bend

Sorry about the misquote eric, my point wasn't so much about poaching. I just think don't see how a reasonable person can rail against giggers because some of them poach, while never seeming to acknowledge the same activities happen among their own ranks. I'm having a hard time articulating it, does that make sense? You're right that a poaching gigger would stand a better chance of taking a big smallie than a poacher with conventional gear. But certainly there's some impact to the fishery of having guys out there with hardware keeping ever 14, 15, 16 inch fish they catch, regardless of the legality, undercutting younger size-classes and killing fish which would otherwise replace those that are currently in the 18+ inch classes. I don't have any data to back it up, but my guess is there's more of those guys than there are folks killing a hundred smallies a night under the lights of a gig boat. I could be totally wrong, though. Wouldn't be the first time.

Sort of an ambiguous question...depends on how hot the fishing is Though I'd be willing to bet you know more than a few good places to target Neoshos down in your area, which would be pretty enticing...

Why should your preference for trophy fish outweigh someone else's preference for keeping a few pan-sized fish to take home? I guess my only beef is that giggers seem to be arbitrarily getting the third degree from you guys. I'd be willing to bet that, for every one gigger out there sticking smallies, there's at least one or two guys out there with conventional gear keeping more than a daily limit of smallies, taking fish out of season, destroying spawning sites/nests, or keeping more trophy fish than is allowed by regulations. I personally witnessed a guy cleaning five smallies on the Jacks Fork last summer, all better than 18", a flagrant violation of the Wildlife Code. Poaching is poaching, and to me it just seems ignorant to say the giggers need to be reigned in when so much poaching activity goes on amongst conventional anglers as well. Identify poachers. Prosecute poachers. Rescind poacher's rights to hunt and fish in the state. But to me, there's no difference between someone poaching with a gig and someone poaching with a rapala. It'd be nice if giggers could better police their own ranks, if there was more enforcement during the gigging season, if fines and penalties were higher for those who illegally take fish with gigs. But those same things are all true of conventional anglers too. Reducing mortality of gigged bass may help grow more trophy fish, but so would reducing mortality of fish poached by the conventional guys. Blaming one side while ignoring the faults of your own, to me, just seems sort of childish. Isn't their something in the bible about he who throws stones? Couldn't help it.

But seriously...what's this have to do with the conversation of hand. If someone starts a thread on the oil spill, will you write about the ethics of fishing for spawners and the effects of gigging on smallmouth bass populations? Believe it or not, it is possible for some folks to be enraged about the oil spill and still be concerned with conservation issues closer to home.

Not to completely derail the thread, but to me it just seems incongruent to say giggers are decimating trophy bass in streams, while at the same time throwing up photos of folks consistently catching trophy bass in streams. Let's put it into perspective: If a river receives 100 anglers a day in the summer, each angler catches 10 smallies, and there's a 10% mortality rate (water temperature, use of bait/lures, and poor handling), then by the end of that day there's 100 dead smallies. What's the difference to the population if 100 guys kill one smallie a day in June and one guy kills 100 smallies a night in November? Either way, there's enough smallmouth to replenish themselves each season, and to provide proficient anglers with some quality fish. Now many of those fish which die each summer could have grown into trophy bass, if only they hadn't been killed. Most of the angling pressure Ozark streams receive is on weekends, ergo most of the angling mortality occurs on weekends. Now, if we banned angling on Ozark streams we'd reduce that mortality, and arguably it could produce better angling. Is that an avenue we should pursue to produce more trophy bass? Where do you draw the line, and isn't that line sort of arbitrary? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending giggers who poach bass. They should be identified and prosecuted. I'd even be willing for some sort of legislation which would require game offenders to seek trial in Jeff City or somewhere out of their own county, as to avoid any conflict of interest. But I think the majority of giggers are getting a raw deal with this whole smallmouth issue. It's like any other obvious source of mortality- be it herons, otters, or giggers. Folks see an otter eating a smallie, or a smallie with gig-marks, and irrationally determine that the fisheries are being "decimated," because of these depredations. Never mind that an otter couldn't hope to kill as many smallies in its lifetime as are killed opening weekend; never mind that one a*hole in a gig boat killing a dozen smallies a night has roughly the same impact on the population as a dozen guys with conventional gear practicing C&R on a good day. I just think lots of anglers are too quick to determine their poor success is the other guy's fault, as opposed to take into account their own impacts on the resource. So yeah, catch the poachers. Prosecute the poachers. But I'd be highly suspect of anyone's claims that poachers are singlehandedly decimating large Ozark smallie streams. All I'm saying is we should quit blowing the gigger issue out of proportion...

Maybe, but that issue is tangential to this thread...

Well, the chances of a gigger succesfully sticking a smallmouth egg are pretty low.... : )

Look, you plainly admitted in your first post to targeting fish on the beds. That's the issue folks are having. With as much time as you say you spend on the river observing fish, it should be pretty obvious, even to yourself, that you're targeting the spawners, regardless of whether or not you're visually fishing to them on nests. What else would account for large, aggressive, adult smallies which are normally dispersed throughout a river system and pretty solitary to suddenly school up, congregate over small areas of a specific habitat during mid to late spring of every year? They're probably not playing poker. You'd have to be an imbecile, completely ignorant of smallie behavior, to not realize it's overwhelmingly likely that those fish are somewhere in the process of spawning. As has been discussed, you're probably not doing great harm to the resource during most spawning year. But to say you're not harming any of the fish you capture is false, plain and simple. Their is almost always some mortality associated with C&R, so with or without knowing it, you've probably killed more than a few spawners. You're adding stress at the most stressful point of the fishes' season, you're removing the nests' guardians, inviting predators to damage said nests, etc. Unlike floods, disease, and drought, it's stress and nest damage that can be 100% avoided. It's one of the few things about smallie spawning success people can control. In a good year-class it probably has no effect on recruitment. But you're certainly not doing those smallies any favors by going after them while they spawn. And, at the margins at least, it may even be detrimental. While it is legal, I'd bet intent of the stream smallie harvest closure is to limit the amount of harassment those spawning fish receive as much as possible. Not to mention that whether it's legal or not is pretty arbitrary; in many states it isillegal to target spawning fish. It's not about the legality of it, it's about whether targeting vulnerable, spawning fish is consistent with a conservation ethic. What about the fair chase element? Those fish are evolutionary programmed to defend their nests, to attack anything which enters, be it a sculpin, a crayfish, or a 3" curlytailed grub. As an aside: Your ire regarding giggers seems a little silly to me. Going after giggers because they're killing fish which you would otherwise be able to rip of their spawning beds the following season strikes me as more than a bit absurd. And if giggers were decimating rivers as much as you contend, I'm willing to bet those photos at the top of the thread wouldn't exist.

You're not earning all this ire because you sight fish for spawners Zipstick. You're getting it because you're intentionally targeting spawners, period. You said as much in your first post, that you use a topwater plug to locate the bass, then have the guest/client toss a soft plastic lure in their bedding area. Sounds pretty intentional to me, and I have to admit- it's something I don't agree with, regardless of what impact it has on the fishery. That's just my opinion, though. As for the whole "bedroom," thing..to me it just sounds like a euphemism for "nest," seeing as how territorial spawners such as smallies aren't going to be moving very far from their nests during this time of year. Again, just my thoughts.

Alright, I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment: To play the devil's advocate: I see the point a lot of these guys are trying to make (maybe it's already been elaborated in other threads-my eyes glazed over somewhere on page 3). You're targeting the biggest fish at their most vulnerable life stage. The fish which produce the greatest volume of eggs. The fish which have the body mass to defend their nest from predators. The fish which obviously have the genetic potential and evolutionary fitness to reach trophy sizes, and the fish which are most likely to pass those genetics on to their offspring. If you're a conservation-minded angler interested in increasing trophy smallmouth production in the state, why harass those fish while they're spawning? Seems like you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. You may not see any longears around the beds, but I'd be willing to bet there's a big handful within eyeshot. They're the most abundant sunfish in most Ozark streams in terms of numbers and biomass, and aside from headwater streams, it's unlikely they're not around. Even if they were, there's plenty of other egg predators- sculpins, crayfish, darters, shiners, dragonfly larvae, and myriad others. Point is, when you rip a fish off it's nest, you're giving some predator the ability to get in there and muck things up. That can be absolutely prevented simply by not targeting fish on their beds. It's not necessarily true that, once you release a fish, everything's hunky-dory. It can take hours, even days, for a fish to resume normal activity. At spawning time, when fish are already allocating a ton of energy to egg production, nest construction, and defense of the nest, and generally not eating a whole lot, that can really push them to their limits. Introduce angling pressure, increased stress, and damage to their bodies/slime coat, and that's yet another source of stress which can be prevented. Is it as detrimental as floods or gravel mining or livestock in streams? No. Is it as detrimental as giggers targeting trophy fish? Arguably not. In a great year class it probably makes no difference; but in an awful one, I'd be pretty concerned about someone ripping 20,30, 50 fish off their nests, multiplied by however many folks are doing it a week. They just don't necessarily need that pressure, is all I'm getting at. I'm intrigued by fish behavior too, but there's a difference between that and feeling the need to catch all or the biggest of them. The first weekend I was out here I accidentally happened on a pod of spawning fish, a couple dozen pairs in a skinny little side channel. At first I didn't really get it- tons of fish in a skinny, vulnerable area, apparently just hanging out and doing nothing. The redds I'm used to stand out like a beacon- the exposed chert having not been colonized by algae. Here they're just a lighter shade of dark gray, occasionally speckled by red and green pebbles. I could've launched a big white streamer through there and caught a half dozen, all big, brightly colored rainbows and cutts. Instead I just sat down on the bar and watched- fish making nests, fish spawning, big males sorting themselves out from smaller ones, finding the best gravel with the best flows and oxygenation. In a way it sort of made that trip; being able to get a glimpse of a world I'll never wholly understand. I guess my point is: appreciating a resource and exploiting a resource are two things, similar, but different. I'm not going to lecture anyone on ethics or etiquette, but maybe just get people thinking. Perhaps someone should do a "What do you value in the Outdoors?" thread...it'd be at least as interesting as a poll on your favorite fly or line. I'll get off my soap box now, good night!

Godwin's Law is a theory that, as internet discussions lengthen, the probability of a comparison being made to the Nazis increasingly approaches one. I'd like to propose an adendum, the OA Principle. Basically, as a thread regarding anything smallmouth on this forum lengthens, the probability of the content veering from the initial subject to windy discussions of ethics, length limits, statewide management, Neosho Smallmouth, and howling and moaning about how someone or another dislikes one user group or another (bait fishers, fly fishers, jetboaters, giggers, folks from this or that side of the state, take your pick...) Seriously. You guys can't have a cogent, civil discussion for more than ten posts, and then gnash your teeth because MDC doesn't seem to listen to you? Any thoughts on why that may be? If I worked for the state and had you guys at a public meeting or, worse yet, in my office, I'd be dodging this trainwreck too. No wonder most biologists would rather take a short walk off a high cliff than deal with the public. In short...grow up. Yeah, I think fishing bedded fish is lame, but frankly I just don't care enough to get all worked up about it. If I had to rationalize it- there's all sorts of species we target when they're vulnerable, whether they be deer, turkeys, crappie, white bass, walleye, or myriad others. If it was systemic I'd be concerned, but I seriously doubt folks targeting spawning fish is a major limiting factor for growth and production of smallmouth in most large Ozark streams. And if you think a guy going out and catching fish off their spawning beds is anywhere comparable to high water events or invasive species in terms of their capacity to effect spawning, you're delusional.

I believe most flying birds have biots on the leading edge of their flight feathers, though I may be wrong. There's an old Appalachian pattern called the Yallerhammer which used the biots of mourning doves. The biots were stripped from the feather shaft and dyed yellow, then wound around the shank of the hook like a hackle.

Not sure, haven't noticed any lack of whipoorwhills when I've been out. I know they're typically associated with large blocks of woods- if you've had a timber cut in your area, or are one of the parts of the state which have had a lot of ice/wind damage over the past couple years. And I'm not sure, but I think they may be ground nesters, and may have had failures over the last few years like turkeys and some other species. Just guessing on my part, though.

After they're used as evidence, in some cases the fish are mounted for public displays. Otherwise they're tossed in the garbage. Honestly, one of the things which irritated me about the report is that the agents apparently had these guys under surveillance for days. It seems to me they could've nipped it in the bud a bit earlier, although it wouldn't have made as interesting a headline...

The trouble with catfish is they're not selective, they wind up eating anything that'll fit in their mouths. If you bass and bluegill populations are already depressed, it can be a serious problem. I once shocked a 2 acre pond, and in one trip around, got maybe a dozen bass and bluegill. Very low numbers, particularly since this was early June and the fish should've been shallow. When we rolled and caught a 38 inch blue out of the pond, the low numbers made sense... My advice would just be to cull them out of the pond through fishing- clean 'em or throw 'em on the bank. Take a few kids out with you, they'll have a ball.

I buy ess I just don't know. On the one hand, I'd certainly buy a ticket for this over something like Avatar. On the other, I feel like the plotline falls into the "any publicity is good publicity," category...something I don't necessarily agree with. If nothing else, it'll be an interesting discussion...

The one your model's holding looks to me like a straight-up bluegill, albeit a little guy. If you/the landowner are looking to improve the fishery, you may want to start with culling out a bunch of the greenies, then the smaller bluegill. MDC's pretty good about doing private pond work when they have the time; you/the landownre may want to contact your local regional office and see if a biologist can come out and do an evaluation. Usually it involves a shock boat and an hour or two, and they can tell you what species are present in the pond, what their size distribution is, and may be able to provide a prescription for how to manage the pond based on your goals (i.e. trophy bass, big bluegill, a crappie pond, something for the kids, etc). It may be worth looking into.

Many times they're introduced when the ponds are stocked with bass, bluegill, or hybrid sunfish- green sunfish are present in many hatchery facilities and aren't necessarily graded out before the fish are shipped to an impoundment. They can also live in some surprisingly tiny headwater streams, so if there's an inflowing streams with a couple year-round pools, they may have came in that way as well. Or they may have been accidentally introduced via a bait bucket. Typically they're not a managent problem in ponds, although they tend to reproduce prolifically and seldom seem to get very large. As long as there's a decent population of bass large enough to prey upon them, things should be fine.

It makes the boats go faster

Jungle camo, urban, or pink? Seriously though, it's all starting to make sense. Now I understand why the bass pros spend so much money on gaudy sparkle flake finishes for their boats

So while we're on the topic, what are your guys most productive lures for targeting gay bass in Pomme, or other Ozark lakes? Bright colors? Lots of sparkle?

I've heard they're great eating, although I've never tried them. I thought about keeping a few while I was out, but I wasn't positive about the regulations on the stream I was fishing. Perhaps if I go back next week I'll have to walk some back to the cooler

I must've caught forty in a few hours the other day, fishing a small stream with glass-clear water, where you could watch the fish watch the fly, twitch it gently to mimic something alive, then watch the fish tip up, its gills flare, and it inhale the fly. From five inch dinks to fish pushing the 9-10 inch mark, far and away the best and most productive rock bass fishing I've ever encountered. Minnow-looking flies seemed to work well; I used zonkers and gray strymphs with success, and olive, crayfish-y looking bugs worked as well, particularly near-nuff sculpins and olive buggers. Caught a few smallmouth, some longears and green sunfish, and the biggest striped shiner and chub I've ever encountered in Ozark streams. I didn't know those fish could smash a size 4 or 6 streamer hook, it was pretty impressive!

Pretty fish- I think Eric may be right though, their heads look a little too big for their bodies, particularly for this time of year. You may want to think about thinning them out a bit.