Wayne SW/MO

This one will probably open the gates, but it's still awhile off until the run.

I have no idea why OT introduced the Penobscot 164 etc. using the name of a canoe that has been very successful for them for decades. There dosen't seem to be ll that much resemblance. The Penobscot 164 doesn't have a whole lot on the Disco 169. It narrower at the waterline which will make it a little faster, but the beam will make it suffer the same problems the Disco has, without the benefit of its capacity. I would look for an RX, or the older Royalex Penobscot.

But you obviously can't stop there, not if you put everything in perspective. Its a different story if you pick and choose according to how it effects you. OB, for the umpteenth time, we all no lead is toxic if ingested or inhaled. Its not toxic to look at or handle with caution. We aren't talking about cyanide or radiation. "The common practice of using pipes for electrical grounding is discouraged, as it accelerates lead corrosion" More misinformation, not common and has been illegal for decades.

"Wayne- if someone developed a high density plastic with the same weight properties of lead (but which was non-toxic), which you could cast into jigheads, spinners, sinkers, etc...would you switch? " Certainly and I assume you're talking about Tungsten powder. You may have better facts, but mine says the process isn't that easy right now. Maybe a call for research and then a ban after a true substitute was found would be better. We don't see any evidence of that in the petition however. Tungsten does seem to be the only viable option where weight to bulk is high. It seems that there is some new evidence that Bismuth may not be as friendly as first thought. The problem with Tungsten, while probably not insurmountable, is cost and melting temperatures. Tungsten can't be processed at home, and it may not be for some small businesses. Obviously an epoxy compound can be.

"Also, does anyone know when Old Town changed the model from the Discovery 164 to the 169? " I don't but it must have been awhile, I've never heard of one. They made a 158, don't know if they still do? I've owned a 169, they will carry a huge load, but the maneuverability isn't all that great. In this area where overnighters are the norm, narrower and lighter canoes are probably better. Something like the Penobscot for instance.

" Sorry, but to me that's just ridiculous. Can you imagine how attractive a target a weighed-down human with 30 lbs of elk guts would be to a bear or mtn lion? " Sorry OB, but I believe your answer might be closer to ridiculous. I've hunted in lion country and let me bring you up to speed. No one packs anything out, guts or hind quarter without a weapon. There's no indication, scientific or otherwise, that lions prefer one part over the other. The fact remains, why change the whole of the US for one region. I'm all for protecting the Condors, but the deer hunters in Pennsylvania should have to worry about what the eat. It seems that CA has a ban, and I assume the hunters their use Barnes bullets, while the rest of us can continue normally. As for eagle, you don't often see Balds in the the higher elevations away from water. Golden's are few and far between, so putting bullet fragments and them together isn't all that likely. Outright bans have always been expensive and poorly thought out, the LP tank valves and light-bulbs come to mind. Both were great for China, bad for Americans.

You're right, research concerning lead fishing tackles impact is solely lacking. It seems a little premature to risk American jobs and increase the import/export balance on vague assumptions. I wasn't aware of a bill before congress, or committee, do you have a number or reference? If the petition before the EPA goes through its hard to say when or how it would be implemented. A little research shows that both petitions were overkill and that may be why the first concerning rifle bullets was turned down.

It helps to use wax as a lubricant. Bees wax seems to work well, its sticky enough to keep the sections from flying apart while supplying some lubrication. I've never tried the premium dubbing waxes, some of them are pretty sticky.

It amazes me that some adults would fret so much over what some others are doing. I assume you all realize that you're not obligated to open a thread that doesn't interest you? "Don't look Ethel!"

Trav does Ann know you're loose again? You've got to stop dragging yourself into this, it upsets her. If some common sense had been injected into the petition there probably wouldn't have been much opposition. The thought that birds are swallowing 1/2 oz spinnerbaits or 1 oz sinkers just doesn't seem feasible. I know one study found one bird that had, but you would have to assume it wasn't the smartest bird around and Darwin had plan for them. If we take a lot of organizations to heart this forum would have no reason to exist. That includes the scientist that buy the pig in the poke from East Anglia. If their research wasn't flawed by their own account, the flaws hidden by their own account, and the earth hadn't heated and cooled for millions of years, I might be more receptive. The only thing they've proven to me is that they are deceptive. That's a documented fact.

It's a crap shoot, it's early and the weather unpredictable. The last big storm was a good example, it dumped record amounts of rain, but not much of it in the TR watershed. The bulk of the watershed is Cassville east, NW Arkansas east of 71 and south and west of Springfield and 65. If it doesn't rain heavy in most of this area the lake doesn't respond significantly. The temperatures have to be taken into account also. If its unusually cold they will generate more power.

I haven't seen any evidence that the Center gets money from the government. Where did you get that info? They are prone to exaggeration and what some would call over the top solutions to biological problems. On the other hand they seem to avoid some more obvious ones. To prevent collisions between ships and whales they want speed limits and exclusion from migration routes.

We're talking about an area in CA and AZ, not the whole US. Would I want to, of course not. Would I want to change all the loads in my guns, rebore all the leades in my rifles, no. I think given the choices, I think I would worry about the gut pile. The truth is it doesn't sound like you have much of a dog in this hunt. Lets face it switching from lead wire or a piece of split shot isn't going to have much effect on your sport.

Yes we do know that lead is poison, like alcohol, certain drugs legal and illegal, siphoning gas, cleaning loaded guns, and we know youngsters shouldn't be exposed to paint chips, and the list goes on. But the petition only addresses lead fishing tackle, while another points to lead bullets. Both aimed at the lethality of them on birds. I have nothing against birds, in fact I like them. I do think that we might need a little more research on the fishing tackle connection. As for the bullets, well that's aimed primarily at Condors and their habit of eating gut piles. The common sense in me says that rather than ban lead bullets for the US and many areas around the world, we simply make hunters remove gut piles in Condor areas. Maybe we could use the same common sense on lead fishing tackle and only ban the small, easily swallowed, stuff. Then we could still have our spinner baits, jigs, lead core line, and of course sinkers.

Good grief, do you suppose they're biting mono and ruining their teeth also? Is that why you think lead should be banned, if so why not change split shot? That way those making jigs and spinnerbaits in this country won't have to retool or go out of business. For all of you who think lead in fishing tackle, it does go a little beyond sinkers for some of us. I make and tie my own jigs, and I would like to continue. I also have no desire to trash several hundred dollars worth of equipment. You could also take pity on people like me who played with lead soldiers and drank water from lead pipes and tell me where all your honey holes are. That way I won't have to burn up what little brain cells I have left looking for them.

Ike was the last storm to blow through here, but while the wind was destructive there wasn't an unusual amount of rain. It's way to early to guess what will happen when the Browns come up, much less make an intelligent estimate.

Sorry Ann, but Trav must have sneaked on to the keyboard when you weren't looking, he was post no #10 on this topic. Has he had a stroke or something that requires you to defend him? I remember when he could do that all by himself.

I've fished there for a lot of decades and I've seen them twice, but they were undercover both times. I imagine they have been there many times when I simply didn't notice or wasn't in the area. I've often wished that I could contact one quickly also, but that's not likely. I witnessed a pair of them nail 4 Asians who were catching 3 or 4 and then taking them to the car. They waited until they quit and were at their trunk unloading their gear. I had noticed one of the agents, or thought I did, and I suspected it was the group that I was parked next too that he was watching because I had noticed them going to the car and coming back with emptied stringers. I don't know where the other agent was, I never noticed him.

My point chief is that if lead is a culprit in the death of birds, enough to put people out work in some instances. Why do we plan on expanding wind turbines when they aren't the only form of renewable energy? Bird deaths do seem to be the only documented indication of harm from lead fishing tackle. You're right that cats can have an effect on birds, but we've always had a lot of birds on our acreages, and cats. There aren't many things worse than rodents in the country.

If we're really serious about saving birds, why are we expanding wind turbines, as opposed to nuclear plants? http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-04-windmills-usat_x.htm I think whether or not the inconvenience is minor would depend on the fishermen.

They are unlikely to dump TR this close to winter. They will most likely hold it close to 916 and that's a lot of room. The reason the last storm didn't create a higher lake is that most of it was on the other side of the hill. There's about as much watershed for TR in AR as there is in Missouri, maybe more.

I would agree more careful studies should be done, and that they probably should be done now rather than later. I does appear to me at this point that the evidence is loose and that tighter studies need to be done. I remember that when the issue came up with waterfowl the evidence was solid and damning. Ann I don't believe anyone "dragged" Trav into this, nor did they request he put his nose in it. I believe he's here by his own free will, in spite of his reference to boredom. Must have been a slow night huh?

I believe, if I remember right, electrics had to be licensed at one time. It was eventually recognized as another ridiculous burden and repealed. If its been reinstated I would be surprised because the news around here reports those kinds of things. Maybe it was a kicker.

I read the link that Ann posted OB, and while I found it interesting, it lacked evidence to change my mind at this point. For one thing it doesn't quantify the sample, what's the overall population? What about the other fishing tackle? I assume the only way around that is a ban on fishing tackle period. Then there's the fact that only two, that show up on the worldwide net so far, about anything close to providing support. That also means accepting the wildly exaggerated figures from the biological diversity site. At least they sound exaggerated to me, 800 million pounds of lead fishing tackle lost every year???????

I'm 71 Chief, what do you want to bet I've drank from lead pipes? I'm not saying lead isn't harmful, I know it is. My problem is that there doesn't seem to be any serious link between lead fishing tackle and extraordinary losses. While Loons may be an exception, it would seem to me that the problem should be addressed more locally. I don't see that any viable link has been established between fishing tackle lead and a problem in the whole of the US. I have a problem buying into a "fact" that states "an estimated 10 or 20 million", if they don't know any closer than that I smell a wild guess. Like you, I was born and raised in the Show Me State, and I don't see that I've been shown.