ColdWaterFshr

Aw, Ness, that was just Paul Dallas storytellin. ColdWater went through the BSA in fine fashion. Had a very good troop and a couple scoutmasters that ran it old school with no nonsense, including an old indian named Bud McElvey. He was the real deal. We were a small troop but very active and did lots of great campouts and adventures that are among some of my very best memories. Minimalist hikes deep into Hercules Glades Wilderness Area, float trips, trips to Ft. Wood, Camp Arrowhead, all kinds of adventures. We had a nice fleet of aluminum canoes that got stolen from our church garage and it was about that time that the BSA got weird about troops having their own canoes due to liability reasons, so they were never replaced. In the 6 years or so that I was in Scouts, our troop graduated something like 9 or 10 Eagle Scouts and this was a troop that never had more than 9 or 10 boys at any one time. Pretty good #'s I reckon. We got into some mischief from time to time, but for the most part we walked the straight and narrow. That story about the stringer in the pine tree might be partially true though. TJM - sounds like you have a well-organized troop and you should be proud. Those pictures look great and I am sure you are doing a great job with the boys.

As a former Boy Scout, I have many fond memories of wanton destruction, harming the wildlife, and reckless behavior in general. It was fun even when someone got hurt. As for fishing, we were never that good at it. But I do remember not wanting to clean some fish at summer camp (Camp Arrowhead) and so I wandered off into the woods and launched that nice stringer of bass high up into a pine tree where it wrapped around a branch and we returned to the scene several times over the next few days and marveled at the swarm of flies, the stench, and the speed of decomposition. Stuff like that. Throwing rocks at turtles and snakes were all standard procedure when the Scoutmaster wasn't watching. In the end though, I figure that Mother Nature exacted her fitting revenge on me 10-fold with heaping dollops of suffering in the form of ticks, chiggers, and poison ivy. Have 'em spool up with 4 lb line, and Rooster tail spinners, small and medium sized rapalas. I would discourage fishing from the canoes as much as possible (injuries, snagged/lost lures). They start to misbehave, send them into the brush to go snipe hunting.

Funny stuff indeed. I thought the last comment was classic, "TALK WITH CHILDREN about lions and teach them what to do if they see one. " Uh, kids, even though we are camping here at Montauk State Park where the population density is greater than anywhere in urban St. Louis, I want you to be aware that there could possibly be mountain lions around, and you should never run from them, and you should make yourself bigger and fight back. Any questions? Okay, go crawl in your sleeping bag and get some shut-eye. :D

Effective immediately: no more cigs for Paul. And no more portages >50yards. I ache like a rented mule.

Good time, Al. Paul Dallas enjoyed it. Good company, good fishing, but need much more.

I'm game. This afternoon there is a creek somewhere with my name on it. Haven't wet a line in almost 2 months thats if you don't count 15 minutes it took to snag some hand-tied clousers in the subdivision cesswater pond the other day. This has to change today.

Eh, keep an eye on the weather and go, you'll be fine. Just check the gauge before you leave and make sure you camp on high ground, not on gravel bars especially if there are thunderstorms in the forecast. I'd do Prongs to Rhymers (16.2 miles), or Prongs to Bay Creek. The upper stretch cruises along pretty good and its pretty up there. I've done Prongs to 2 Rivers in 2 days. About 45 miles. It didn't leave much time for fishing, but it can be done. Have fun.

We've beat this old horse long enough and I'm sorry for picking the scab and ruffling feathers. This is the last I'll say on it and then I gotta get out of this office and go fish. It is unfortunate that this Prater guy is clearly a knucklehead and is so misinformed on this issue. He is in for a rude awakening, hopefully sooner and not later, and hopefully it will be done peacefully and without more floaters getting harassed. We're all together on that. And the biggest hope is that he doesn't have deep enough pockets to try and press it further and take it up the ladder through the courts. If he does, we could all lose big, all over the state, on a lot of great fishing streams that run through private property (as most do). I love to float and fish all over the state and have done it for about 35 years now. If there is a creek in the Ozarks, and it is big enough for a canoe, I've been on it at least once if not more times, so yes, I do have have a pig in this poke. Aside from that . . . That was the biggest joke of a petition I ever saw. 1) It was collected on an internet forum, 2) delivered to a Newton County Sheriff whose job it is to enforce the law and keep the peace -- not to make laws or interpret gray areas of law -- so it was delivered to the wrong authority, and finally, 3) it was delivered by a person whose primary motive for going to meet the Sheriff in the first place was to clear up the warrant for his own arrest! Extending himself on behalf of my rights to fish . . . .????? :donwan:

C'mon. I never made accusations of wrongdoing of anybody. Watch the video again, then read my original post. The cops and the landowner were after clearly looking for Chief and asked where he was and how you guys knew him. All I said was that I found that VERY curious because we never heard that story originally, did we? That put the whole thing in a different light, at least for me and raised some questions about previous incidents. Whatever those were, we never heard SQUAT about those incidents, did we? And so then as we were told by Chief - the sheriff told him stay away for a while to let things cool off, and he asked you guys to do the same. Why? If he was snow white innocent, its hard to imagine why there would be a warrant for his arrest, why the cops would know him by first name, and why he would agree with the sheriff to stay away. Why did he ask all of you to stay away as well? Missing info, thats all. No accusations on my part. PLEASE, I encourage ALL of you to go float Shoal Creek this coming weekend, with CHIEF as your guide, get out on the gravel bars, fish and wade and make a big shore lunch right there at the same spot we saw in the video. See where it gets you. You are all so in the right and there is absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing, GO FOR IT. And please video it again. Might be good to get up another petition

Its confusing because the paragraph I cut and paste talks about "frontage" being private property. Frontage is the bank immediately adjacent to a stream, is it not? No mention of gravel bars, high water marks, or any language that would approach the notion of an "easement". MDC's link on trespassing is not a legal statement in any way, shape, manner or form and they would probably be the first ones to tell you that, hence their repeated disclaimer about asking for permission. Nobody is denying that going up in the field and throwing down some tents would be trespassing, but exactly what point is the high water mark? High water as in the floods of last week? Floods of last fall? Is this imaginary line in flux? MDC's link doesn't define JACK and that is by their own design. They want to avoid involvement. I too am looking forward to this Prater dude exploding when the outfitter puts in 100 canoes on the first nice weekend of the season.

But the MDC link doesn't provide any definition of high water mark . . . it doesn't even mention those words. The words they use are stream "frontage". Frontage meaning all the way to the waters edge, or frontage to the high water mark? And riverbed?? What is the definition of that. MDC doesn't want any part of this. Thats why their disclaimer of the cardinal rule to "ask permission"

I see what you are saying Snagged, but then how do you interpret this paragraph? ______________________ "Obviously floatable means the stream segments that have property maintained for the purpose of allowing public access to the stream, such as Missouri Department of Conservation access sites. Obtaining legal access does not eliminate your responsibility to respect private property while fishing or floating. The majority of Missouri’s stream frontage is privately owned. The establishment of a Special Black Bass Management Area does not automatically give an angler the right to trespass on privately owned stream frontage." ______________________

Interesting link, Snagged, but it really doesn't make it crystal clear - if anything, by reading that over, it sounds like Prater was in the right and you had to have permission from Prater to be out on his banks and fishing. Has anyone spoke to the MDC agent that handles Shoal Creek? Could they not provide a written statement about what is considered trespass on that stretch of water?

Seems like a lopsided request. Stay off the river for the summer. What did Chief get in return? He got owned, thats what.

You're right, Al. Float season will be in full swing here in just a few weeks. Sheriff and all the other authorities need to get together with the land owner and the canoe livery and nip this thing in the bud.

Spoken like a Chief who has lost a few feathers in battle! Let me clarify, Chief . . . does this form of respect apply to dealing with landowners who are convinced they are in the right even though they may not be? You are a piece of work, Chief. The prosecution rests.

Good for you. But if you were truly as innocent as you claim, then why did you leave his office agreeing to stay off a public waterway for what amounts to a whole summer? If that was my home-water, one that I fished all the time, and I had never done anything to nobody, you can bet I wouldn't have agreed to those terms.

Ah!! Chief, would you please approach the bench, place your left hand here on the good book and do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

No doubt about it, I agree --- and what would that be? It was the fact that he had previous run-ins with Chief, and the deputies already knew of these problems, were there to catch him in the act again (right or wrong is not the issue) and were there in search of HIM. You guys were guilty by ASSOCIATION because you stated right at the beginning of the video that you knew him and were there with him. Simple as that. Yes, you were getting harassed, but your presence there was WITH a perceived troublemaker -- Chief. Hello? Is any of this making sense? The HISTORY that makes this relevant is not what happened on this particular day. Its what happened all the previous times when you guys were not there and it was Chief and whatever problems he has had with the landowner.

PRECISELY. That is all this is about, Troutfiend, is Chiefs DIRTY LAUNDRY, isn't it? ISN"T IT???? LOOK AT ME WHEN I ADDRESS YOU SON, you lie under the very blanket of freedom that I provide, and while you joke about it at frat parties and cocktail parties, there are men like me out there defending . .. blah, blah, blah. I'm going to bed. Your honor, I would like to call a recess until Chief Greybear can take the stand.

Your honor, objection again. Please move to strike troutfiends gratuitous and indulgent performance review and opinions on the matter of Chiefs relationship with the landowner. As witnessed in the youtube clip, the deputies and landowner were clearly anxious to know the whereabouts of a Chief Greybear and not nearly as anxious to discuss high water marks and things of other non-importance with the individuals in the jon-boat.

Say what?

Some of the first words out of the deputies mouth were not YOUR firstname, were they troutfiend? I find that curious. Move to strike troutfiends comments your honor, overly ambiguous, argumentative, and having no bearing on the HISTORY of Chief Greybear with this landowner. Sustained.

Your honor, please call Buzz to the stand and make him solemnly testify to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.