Chief Grey Bear

I just found this and thought you trouters would like to read it. I haven't read all of it yet, but there is a depth of information here. http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/25.pdf

I do spend a lot of time on the creeks and rivers, not only in spring but, all year long. I can honestly say that in a years time I could probably count the number of people I see fishing on one hand. I am sure Buzz will agree. Current regulations cover most spawning fish in creeks and rivers.

Three non topic post out of 45. You boys are totally out of controll! But my two cents is that since brownie populations are not in decline, the current regulations on them must be working. Haven't you beat the hell out of this subject yet?

Now this is a much more interesting conversation, in my book, than what somebody wants to enforce on everyone else. I totally agree that the Spot is a more southern, warmer water that smallmouth, species. I have always thought that it is quite possible that in between the last two ice ages, Spotted bass had a range that extended further north. Not by a lot but, at least into southern Iowa and the southern half of Illinois. I think the tempatures of that time could have supported them. And then as you stated, they retreated or possible became extinct in some of their range. In doing some unrelated research the other day, I discovered that the Beautiful Armadillo( that is the name, I didn't name it) was native to North America. For unknown reasons it became extinct about 11,000 years ago. With that, it could be possible the same happened to the Spot with the coming of the last Ice Age, or Glacial Age as we are supposed to call it. Ice Age works for me though as that is what we were taught in school. Now another thought for you is that it is possible that smallmouth made their move up the Missouri as one of the first two Ice ages were makeing their way toward the south. Myself I believe it most likely happened during the Kansan. I understand and agree with you that a lot of silt was moving down the Missouri. But as the northern plains became coverered with ice, less and less silt was being washed into the wateways and thus I think the Missouri cleared enough for them to move. Just a thought I have always had. And it may totally off base.

Sounds like the best Christmas gift there KC! We got somewhere near an inch of sleet/ice mix. Snowing like crazy now. Already a couple or 3 inches. Tomorrow would be a beautiful day for a Ozark float! Not so much for the fishing but, just the beauty.

Is there any data supporting the "Slaughter" on "Opening Weekend?"

I can't deny that! I know I don't always side with the popular belief, but that does not mean it is not my belief. I think it leads to a better discussion if their is an opposing view. It just seems like I am alway providing it. As I have stated before, any reg changes to smallmouth will not affect me. But how will it affect others that also use the resource? Shouldn't it be about what is best for all? Coldwaterfisher pointed out that I was being selfish for asking what was in it for me. Well, isn't that what all of this is about? If everyone was concerned about what was best for the smallmouth, nobody would fish for them. The season would be permanently closed. But that is not what we want. We want what we think is best for us, thus we have have a whole thread about what regs should be imposed upon everyone who fishes across the state.

No, I was really just kinda making a funny about this whole brownie discussion.

Very well said Gary. I have been wanting to say that and a little more but, I knew if I did, it would look like I was attacking the MSA and that is not my point of this thread.

Can anybody from the MSA explain why all the perceived secrecy on the site? I would surely think that the ogranization would like for prospective members to be able to read the newsletter to get an idea about what is goin on. With that and how president Matt answered about the membership, just makes one wonder. It is almost like if too much info gets out they will loose their Secret Society Tax Status.

Whoop's my bad there then Wayne. I guess I read it the wrong way. There is a third option. Eat more brownies! I don't know what the correct answer would be. I can't answer why the armadillo has had many thousands of years to get here but, didn't make a showing until the early 1980's. I don't know how to explain it to you. I'll try this and see what happens. It was not officially recongized by the scientific community as a seperate species until 1927.

Oh man! From Gregg Allman: Oh Lord I feel like I've been tied to the whipping post.....

I think you are starting to get my vibe Wayne. I think it is quite possible that the Spotted bass could have already been on the move but was misidentified for many of the early years of research when it was crucial for establishing native ranges. Nobody is assuming that the smallmouth came to the ozarks by rail. I certainly did not say that. If you read my post, I stated that I believed that smallmouth were alread here. But like fishgypsy, you are twisting what I say for what appears to be to create an artificial argument. All I was saying is that I can see how it could have happened that way. The railroad was completed to Jeff City in 1855. From that point to say, 1870, one could wonder how much research had been done on those rivers to know what species were present. I am not sure that is fully known.

I can't help you with the MDC. You have seem to have your mind made up. I am not confused when it comes to the Spotted bass. What I should have said in my original post so you didn't get confused was that the Spotted bass "was offically recongnized" as a seperate species in 1927. I just assumed, incorrectly as it turns out for some, that everyone knew what I was saying. I never said they were not identified as a seperate species. There are numerous writtings on early identification of Spotted bass, but as you also point out in your post, and what I said, they were not recongized as a seperate species.

There is no doubt in my mind that smallmouth are native to this state. The question is are they native to all of the waterways they are currently found in, in Missouri? Construction of the first railroad in Missouri was started in 1851 in St. Louis. It was around 15 years later before it reached KC due to the Civil war. This railroad, first named the Pacific of Missouri, later to be called the Missouri Pacific, and today known as the Union Pacific, followed the Missouri River as far as Jefferson City before taking an overland route the rest of the way. A second line was also built, later, from Jefferson City to KC that continued to follow the Missouri River. Anyway what I am getting at is all of the great north flowing smallmouth rivers that entered the Missouri were crossed by this railroad. Were these rivers stocked? I can't say. I have no idea. It certainly seems plauseable.

Well I guess you got me fishgypsy. This is from their web site: About the commission The Missouri Department of Conservation was conceived at the low point of U.S. conservation history. Unregulated hunting, fishing and trapping and the abuse of forests had decimated the state’s natural resources. Missouri sportsmen devised a solution that was as simple as it was revolutionary. They drafted a constitutional amendment creating a non-political conservation agency. Voters approved the amendment in 1936 by a margin of 71 to 29 percent, one of the largest margins by which any amendment to the state constitution has ever passed. It gave Missouri the world's first non-political, science-based conservation agency with exclusive authority over forests, fish and wildlife. As for the spotted bass, according to my source,A.J. McClane: A popular freswater gamefish, sometimes called Kentucky bass or Kentucky spotted bass, the spotted bass was not properly identified by fishery taxonomists until 1927.... So yes I used the term "recongized" improperly. I guess. But then again, a quick search turned up this little tid bit: Unknown to most, cursed by many, and appreciated by a few, this powerful gamefish is often confused with both Smallmouth and Largemouth Bass. Spotted Bass are indeed a separate species and not a hybrid cross between their cousins. Spots were first discovered in the 1900's in Kentucky. It was not until 1927, that they were officially recognized as a distinct species. In 1958, the Spotted Bass was named the official state fish of Kentucky and is still recognized by the moniker "Kentucky Bass" in many areas. During his careeer Mack Farr has kept intensive records of his countless hours pursuing Spotted Bass.

Oh wow! Sounds like it was a pretty sweet vessel. I bet it would have been a blast trolling for White Bass too!

Oh sure Bill. There are many. But since the Salt was specifically mentioned, I was just letting it be known about the area that was mentioned. There are far more waterways in Missouri with brownies than there are Spots. But you see where we are.

Just about all of the waterways flowing east into the Mississippi river, north of the Missouri river confluence, have a brownie population.

Well see, there ya go. I am surpised you have never mentioned this before. How often were the stockings? How many were stocked? Thanks for the geography lesson too. I don't get out of Jasper County much. To quote A. J. McClane: "The geography of the smallmouth bass can be traced by the growth of the American railroad. Until 1869, its range was largely confined to the Lake Ontario and Ohio River drainage systems, but as the wood-burning diamond stackers rolled south and west, the bass became a commuter. The original brood of the Potomac basin, for example, came from the Ohio River by riding over the Alleghenies on the Baltimore and Ohio in buckets hanging in the water tender. This resulted in some widely scattered plantings, and eventually the smallmouth arrived in California from Lake Ontario via New York." Makes you wonder if any of that happened in Missouri?

Just a couple of notes. The MDC didn't do anything from 1930 to 1937. The spotted bass was not reconized as a speperate species until 1927. The only known report of a stocking of spotted bass in a trib of the Missouri River that I have seen, was in the Sac River around 1940. LOZ was completed in 1931. (I think I got that right) Somehow spotted bass got through the dam at LOZ in numbers great enough to continue on their rampage for the Meremac like Gangis Khan. Theories are just that, theories. Anything other than that is fact.

Is that the new bass boat you bought from Babbler?

Are these any better?

If this post works, it is just a test to see if I got this figured out. What I hope you see are two photo's of a trip Buzz and I took last December.

In the previous year that we have been talking about this, we were lead to believe that the smallmouth was on the brink of extinction in eastern Missouri. Now I am beginning to understand. In these last few threads a lot of different thoughts and ideas have been thrown out in regards to how the regulations should be changed. Would you tell me what it is that you would like to see. What would your Christmas list of regs for smallmouth be? Would they be statewide or more on per waterway basis?