jscheetz

It is interesting that in every article you read about that big bass or any other in CA waters - Almost to a person they all agree that why there is so many big ones is because of all the catch and release. Guys know that if they let that 15 pounder go he will reach 20 a lot faster than a 2 pounder will. Seems like commone sense to me - you can't argue with it, although some here on this board always try. Just think if all the goofballs would stop hauling all the big browns out of Taney in the fall, how incredible of a fishery we would have here. Ah.... we can dream...... JS

Gonefishin - I appreciate you speaking simple so even I can understand. And I wanted to apologize for inferring that you don't care about wildlife or conservation. It came out that way and that was unfair as I don't know all you do just like you don't know what I do. I'm sorry bout that. However, you strike me as being a bit "old school" in thought, in that you have said many things like "not getting too extreme" and things along those lines. That is where I am afraid I disagree. Sometimes I think the ONLY way to get things done is by being extreme. While everyone is hunkering down on the "wait and see" approach I feel like much is lost. And while I am not sure about the otters, I have had too many conversations with people who really don't respect the wild creation to just think that if we just take it easy and slow that all will be OK. Complacency was what led to many of the wildlife and environmental debacles throughout history. Guess I just figure if your house is on fire, you won't pontificate on what to do - you get extreme! JS

You got that right eagle!! It has been a near miracle that the restoration of these animals to their original range has worked so well - even moreso when you consider there are guys like gonefishin out there. I do type with a tear in my eye however due to fishin's nasty remarks about bambi - next your probably gonna try and tell me there's no santa - I have my hands over my ears as I type, I'm finding my happy place.... hehehehehehehehehehehehe you NEVER cease to amaze me - I have heard of slanted poll questions, but this may be the silliest! Let me know when you get some people on the fishing board to respond that the otters are helping smallmouths - hehehehehe - I won't wait up for it - JS

gonefishin - you are FINALLY making sense!!! But then - you are gone again. DEER???? QUAIL?? Let me re-check the thread title..... yep, said "otter introduction". I was commenting on otters. You are a classic brickwaller, and that is what I love about you!! As for my study habits - I would be happy to sit down and discuss facts - not "Ozark traditions" with you anytime. All you have to do to check on whether or not there were otters in MO is look back to fur trader records. As you can imagine not many people carefully and scientifically counted animals back in the early 1900s - especially not insignificant ones. But the records show that there were indeed plenty of otters pre "introduction" so this conspiracy theory you are throwing out there about Fed$$ - it does make for good "chin scratchin" for those who don't know better - but comon, you know you can't get by with that here. "River otters were once common to all major streams, wetlands and natural ponds in Missouri. Severe degradation of these features coupled with unregulated harvest to support the fur market during settlement, almost caused otters to dissapear. By 1936, only a few otters remained in Southeast Missouri." That quote is from the MDC though, so if you are inclined to believe in the conspiracy, then it won't hold much water for ya. But still worth noting. JS

Well, to be accurate it is Otter RE-introduction. There used to be a lot more otters in MO than there are now. But man's greed and unregulated trapping almost completely wiped them out. Ultimately MDC placed them on the endangered animals list. Then re-introduction took place, and actually ended clear back in 1992 I believe. So they have been around awhile. I am sure that they had some impact on streams where erosion and poor stream management had changed the nature of the stream flow (ie - not as many deep pools) - plus, the fish there had grown accustomed to not having this particular predator there (Much like the Elk in Yellowstone before the wolf reintroduction) so I am sure it changed some things. Personally I think that the problem still lies in man trying to play God - by only wanting "desirable" species to be plentiful, while wanting to get rid of ones that disturb that balance. Otters were here for a long time before man came along and colonized the Ozarks - so the natural balance IS otters being here - we have upset that balance by first killing them all off and then bringing them back. I know we can't go back to the balance we had before we were here, but in my opinion I would rather have it as close as we can get it. So perhaps the MDC needs to look at other things that have come along since the old otter days - ie Jet boats, a million float trips, creeping population centers, more human fishermen etc etc and try to work to keep those in check -like they should have done all along. In other words - otters can't help the amount or size of fish they take - they are only trying to survive. But us humans - we have the capacity for forward thinking (well, some do ) and we have a choice as to how many fish we kill - we are not surviving on them. So if we are REALLY that concerned with fish numbers, I would suggest we look inward instead of outward. JS

Forsythian, feel free to disparge a little bit anytime, It is very educational for us all to see that there are lots of different opinions on topics - and many ways to deal with subjects that are near and dear to all of our hearts. Heck, somewhere along the way some of us may even rethink things, or at least empathize a bit with another position - that is what makes this forum so good and so fun. And if a person gets offended that easily then they shouldn't be commenting on subjects like some of these, because there is a good chance someone out there disagrees with you and will say so! (Or in my case maybe a bunch of people will say so) But hey - we all gotta be who we are. And if you ever have to "Push or Prod" to find out my motivations, I aplogize for that - I figured it was pretty easy to see where I stand. Gonefishin, now you are another story - JS

I just want so say you guys just ROCK!!!! I LOVE this board!!!!! Those exploding raccons ARE dangerous - if you are near one when he blows up it can be deadly. JS

Forsythian, Thanks so much for your encouragement - it is so important to have a support group. And who knows - as long as there are guys like you out there to help guide me, someday I may actually be able to be a man, and hang a dead animal or two on my wall - and maybe even a rebel flag on my truck. aaaaahhhhh - I can dream can't I. JS

I know otters can cause damage as some said in ponds - and perhaps some small streams. But it is mostly exactly the same rhetoric I hear in Montana - "the wolves are killing all the" - elk, moose, deer, prarie chickens (insert favorite "sport" animal here) - - And in the valley there where my place is I have seen many, many animals fall to the hunters gun - but I have not seen even ONE wolf kill. Granted, I am not there all the time, but am plugged into the wolf management of the area, and most of the "rumors" about the wolves decimating populations is just that - rumors started and kept up by the locals who don't want others telling them what to do. I think a lot of that exists in OZ streams in relation to the otters. Could be wrong - BUT.... if I am, then why wouldn't the solution be for people to harvest LESS fish, moose, whatever - instead of exterminate the other animal in question that is just doing what God intended him to do??? Maybe just cynical today but seems to me like it's back to most of my beef - people think it's all about them and don't want to give up any of THEIR - fish frys, gigging space, moose steaks etc etc etc etc etc - even for the sake of the planet. Whew - OK now I feel better Sorry - gotta go hug a tree now JS

JS

At-a-boy for picking up cans. Of course until you get the rest of the corn liquored hillbillies to quit throwing their bottles in the river - it's cancelled out - I agree that usually more laws aren't the answer. But somewhere along the line we have to be realistic. There is just no money for more agents. Probably not going to be either. It's sort of like in a town near where I grew up - they put a curfew on for 11pm for all kids. They did not have the man power in the police force to patrol the area since there were so many kids hanging out and getting into trouble. It was much easier for a few officers - if they saw a kid out after 11 it was a simple deal, instead of seeing 20 kids standing about and trying to figure out which one was causing trouble. We have too much water to be left unattended. Maybe rotate the areas that are available or open so the agents could properly do their jobs. btw - IS there any limit on any of the streams as too how many canoes can be on them? They do that in other places but I didn't know if they do that in the Ozarks or not. My first guess would be due to the "traditions" down there - that they would not. Let me know if you can. JS

Dangit Gonefishin - I had you figured for a banjo player! I love mandolin stuff - Nickel Creek are a fantastic band. Do you build for other people? Wayne - I am with ya on that one - seems like the best way to do it, would sure make for a great fishery - What do we have to do to get it rolling - I am up here in KC, but would do whatever to be involved - JS

Well, at least if shuffling was illegal it would as others have said, give you something to say to someone who is doing it. But I really think it is just the way MDC sees this fishery. It's fish in a barrel - they stock 'em people take - they stock some more. I really don't see much active enforcement of any laws down there - I just don't think the fish here as a resource is valued nearly as much as a wild trout in Montana for instance. I have NEVER seen anyone checking licenses or creels at taney. I know some say they are hiding in the bushes - but comon - if they wanted to actually crack down - on any given Saturday there are a hundred people within walking distance of the dam - should be pretty easy work if an agent was inclined to enforce the law. JS

Forsythian, All I can say is of all the posts I've read, yours are among the few that don't seem to have a sense of humor. I wish I could help you with that - I mean when others are sarcastic or funny, just seems to make you madder, I'm sorry if I've done that. Best advice - - Lighten up!!! Chuckle at yourself - or me - for crying out loud - "Calling up a bear with a leg of chicken" - now THAT'S funny!!! Comon - But since you asked for my ignorant opinions - here goes - Not enough time to discuss all that could be discussed on it, but - I think the tradition of Fox hunting - at least I would expect the kind that you are talking about, being hounds chasing a fox followed by a group on horses, is a social event originally practiced by the aristocracy. Actually the English foxhunt was originally done mostly on King's land where others weren't allowed to hunt. Eventually less land restrictions allowed the commoner to act like the important people by partaking in some of their activities. Rich people have always amused themselves with activities that aren't particularly difficult or dangerous for them, but are made to make them look somehow important in the eyes of their subjects and or peers. Much like the Tiger hunts that took place in India in the 1800s - I actually have a book describing the hunt of King George V as late as 1911, in Nepal where they killed 39 tigers from the safety of the backs of elephants. Of course we can see the upper class attitude on "sport" as far back as the Roman Coliseum. So I think the fox hunt is about as sporting as watching 10,000 people fight each other or various animals to their death on a Saturday afternoon. They don't need to eat the fox - the fur is too damaged to use, so there is no "hunter/gatherer" capitulation to be made as is traditionally argued for in other hunting debates. So it really is a social event. As far as a culturally important historical event, I think that it's "tradition" as you like to call it is significant in many ways. Just like the coliseum - we can learn a great deal about ourselves by studying history. Overall I think you could have exactly the same social experience by taking a bunch of people out on horses on a ride through the country - maybe even take a few dogs along for companionship - nowadays the people could take cameras and get photos of the group and the scenery to last a lifetime - maybe have a picnic and all hang out together. See I think this would completely satisfy the social side of the human psyche - as to the darker side, I don't know, history has also taught that maybe only bloodshed can do that. History is packed with traditions and ways that at the time were completely accepted and fought for by the faithful - whether it be Killing tigers by the dozens, buying and selling slaves, not allowing women the right to vote, or even disco. But the beautiful thing about it, is the ability of the collective human thought to sway the world to the proper moral and ethical position. Doesn't always happen, and certainly doesn't happen overnight. But I have faith that good will always triumph over evil. Sorry this post is long - but not knowing anything and whatnot, it takes me longer to cypher out the thinkin in my head for ya - JS

Illegal JS

hhhuuuuuummmmmmm..... Well - apparently I need to clarify a bit. It was no I who started the name calling - my "hillbillies" response was to lumping anyone who raised so much as an eyebrow towards gigging to be in bed with Peta. I think you guys have some serious guilt issues hangning over your heads. I can't see why, I mean calling a bear up with a leg of chicken and then blasting it in the head seems sporting enough to me. What?? They QUIT that too???? Dangit! JS PS - Kicknbass - To use the quote feature, when you are making your post, go to the other post you want to quote from and highlight the words to be quoted - right click and copy - then paste it in your post and highlight it and then select the quote tool and voila! - Your pal the maul swinger Sims - congrats on your "Duskystripe Shiner" status JS

Oh boy. Where do you start. Well - if we are going to throw everyone who wants to see more limited gigging and better law enforcement in with "Peta and Wackos" then I guess who's the other side? "Backwards hillbillies out all night drinkin corn liquor and spearin whatever they see" ??? It works both ways. And "Divide and conquer"?? I am sorry, but if you hate to see the "tradition" of gigging like it has existed in the past - get attacked like - "Bear baiting" - and "Fox hunting"???? I mean you are now putting gigging in with those two? Wow - I sure admire your honesty- - - Just to clarify you really were lamenting the way people have stood up against the archaic redneck practice of "baiting" a bear in close enough to kill it right? Geeesh - Well if that is the position of the "gigging community of sportsmen" - Then move over PETA and give me some blanket cause I'm coming in. JS

I say we put together a petition of sorts on the browns via this board to send to MDC - I know Phil has said it probably wouldn't make a difference to them, but hey - all changes have to start somewhere right??? Let's do it. Gonefishin - now you are on to something - branding!! Maybe we should do like they do in some states where when someone gets arrested for soliciting a prostitute he has to have a sticker on his car that proclaims that - - - - or MAYBE......... If someone gets busted shuffling then they have to fish with a bright orange vest that says "Shuffler" on the back??????? Ryan - good to see other players here! I have too much gear for in the studio, but touring the main rig I am mostly playing is Fender Strats through a Yamaha/Soldano tube head through 4x12 cabs - although I have an old modded fender twin that I use quite a bit as well. Sort of depends on the situation. At least that's what I tell my wife - "I really NEED that amp for this recording" Come to think of it - it's sort of like flyrods There must be a special place for her in Heaven - she married a musician AND a flyfisherman! JS

Great info Fox! I too have studied the plight of the monster gar. They used to be so plentiful in some rivers that you could catch several "monsters" in one day's fishing. Most guys would just hook them, then play them for awhile and shoot them in the head and unhook them when they got near the boat and then just let them drift, while they went on to catch more. There are several articles written from the early days that document boats out fishing and watching dead giant gar float by from "sportsman" upstream who had killed them and caste them away. Pure waste. I can't figure out what the attraction is to kill a magnificent and fairly rare animal of this size. I guess man's unsatiable thirst for killing everything in sight is not likely to be quenched anytime soon with the likes of these guys still out there. JS

Some Clapton might be a nice touch - but as much as I love writing and playing music, there is still NO music as great as a bubbling stream, a light wind in the trees, a splashing trout or two - maybe an Elk bugling in the distance, some birds talking, just sitting still and listening to that - - still trying to capture that in a tune. Geeesh - gettin all teary eyed, maybe this is all better left to Oprah. JS

OK - I know I already listed my suggestion, and I have brought this up before, but maybe someone new will read this post and "get it" - I would love to see a closed season on Browns over 20" during the fall spawn. It seems that they are way too easy to catch and congrugate in great numbers below the dam. So why not just make it illegal to keep the big ones in the fall when they are the most vulnerable? OK - for those of you who are tired of hearing my say that - thanks for putting up with it. JS

Drama?? That's why I fish - every time I hook a good fish there's lots of drama in there for me!! Life is pretty mudane without a little drama - "Scared of yellow" - well, that's not exactly apples to apples - I mean unless he's waving his yellow hat in your face You don't have to look at the yellow guy. Can't get away from Mr. bigtime blowing his smoke in my face. Dano swears you are not going to blow smoke on me tippet - so I take him at his word But just for the sake of our "class" would be good to mention it to some people who may not be so sensitive about others. Not that I think of it - sometimes outlet #2 does start to look a bit like a Oprah audience. JS

Ya know tippet, I make my living as a professional guitarist, and I could bring a wall of amps down to the river that would be so loud that it would literally peel the skin off your forehead as you were trying to fish. But I don't do it - just because that would be subjecting you to something I was doing that you probably wouldn't want during your fishing experience, and to me.... that's just rude. That's the point. But we won't all be courteous and so it goes. It's that whole - "I'll do what I want and when I want and I don't care what anyone says" that seems to me to be the trouble with things, but like I mentioned above - everyone will go their own path. JS

Good work!!! Here's your license. JS

The building where I have my studio has another group that does this thing called "Grossbusters". It basically is a class where young kids come in and have a nice meal together among other things and learn proper manners and etiquette. You know - the things parents USED to teach their own kids. Anyway it is pretty cool - been on CNN etc - kind of a neat thing. So reading the "rude people" thread got me thinking that we need to have something like that at taney. Since there are so many people there - in order to fish taney you should need a special license that you get by attending a special one day class to learn streamside manners. Think of it - a bunch of well behaved fisherpeople saying "excuse me" and "thanks", or "can I help you carry your gear back to the truck?" Or complimenting their comrades with "Those are really nice waders" and "great distance on your cast - were you that stunt caster in 'a river runs through it'??" See - THAT'S what we're talking about here. So who decides who passes and who doesn't? Well I suppose MDC would have to be involved - although they probably wouldn't show up anyway - you know not enough money in the budget etc etc - So I figure we could do a lot worse than having Phil as one of the teachers - he's an upstanding kinda guy - does lots of work for us all and certainly knows the good and bad down there, and he already keeps most of us in line here. So this thread can be where we make our suggestions of what topics we would like addressed in class, and of course maybe even suggest a few new rules and regulations. That way no one is only getting their views and wants enforced, but everyone has a voice. Maybe - just maybe a newbie to taney could glean a bit of wisdom from here - or a veteran could take pause to consider their actions - I know I have learned much by reading all the posts here. - Or maybe it's all just fun. So I will start off with my subject request - hard to limit it to just one, but mine encompasses a lot of things. 1. Personal Space. When fishing be aware of what is happening in your personal space and try not to let things in your space affect everyone else on the river. So this could include wading loudly within a few feet of someone else, blasting your radio, smoking cigars within other peoples range. Most of the posts I see here with people complaining about fellow fishermen fall into the personal space category - The bottom line is this - most of us want to feel like we are on an isolated stretch of the Yellowstone even if we are amongst 50 other people. Some of this may cause personal sacrifice, but if we all think of others first and how what we do affects them as the good book says, it will help. end of first period - JS