ozark trout fisher

That's pretty common. Smaller trout will generally feed in the shallow riffles, while the larger ones spend more time in the pools.

There. At least we agree on that, and I think that's as close as our opinions are going to get... I guess I understand where you coming from now, I just disagree.That's fine though.

Okay, but why not have a small portion of the stream that is managed differently? What would it hurt to have a short area that has a more stable trout population? You just can't tell me what it would possibly hurt, and until you can answer that question I'm gonna have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. "Why are you so hell bent on changing the rules on a stream that you won't ever fish? Or at best you may fish it once every couple of years." This is not just about Capp's Creek. If that's the way I made it sound, then I didn't make myself clear enough. Mainly, I was just using the shocking data from that stream to show how White Ribbon management might be effecting other waters-maybe not quite the scientific method, but without any shocking data I can find on other small White Ribbon streams, it's the only thing I can go off of. I also have in mind other White Ribbon streams that I fish on a regular basis that could really be helped by a short C&R stretch. Roubidoux Creek comes to mind...I know it has Red Ribbon water, but the thermal conditions in that section are marginal at best for year-round trout survival.

Don't have to worry about that. It's exactly why I don't fish trout parks anymore. Rotating a good pool is an ethic on crowded trout streams that's been around for ages, and it's just a good way to share the best water. If you've been catching fish after fish for the last five hours on a really good pool, and there are lots of other people around, it's common courtesy to move to some lesser water for a bit to give others a chance. Flytyer, I agree that it's rude to stand in the area of another person's swing, especially if they're swinging soft hackles or something like that.

Mark, I'm not sure anyone is calling for a catch and release area on the Eleven Point. I'm a lot more worried about the smaller streams that can't take the catch and keep pressure as well. I think most fly/catch and release fisherman are satisfied with the situation down there, with already 5 miles of good water managed as Blue Ribbon. I just can't make it clear enough that I don't have anything against bait fisherman, keeping fish, or whatever, within the law. This is not an us vs. them type thing.

I can tell you from experience that smallmouth bass can and do exist, and sometimes even thrive in trout water. Not everywhere, but in some streams. I have found decent numbers of smallmouth bass in streams throughout the Ozarks and elsewhere where you wouldn't expect them because of cold water, and young of the year fish too. Let me give you some examples... 1. I know of a pool on Blue Spring Creek where I can take you any day and we'd catch smallmouth bass in the fingerling to 7 inch range. This is on the upper reaches, and it's 100% spring water. It's 2 1/2 miles and two low water bridges up from the nearest water that should be able to have a smallmouth spawn based on what you guys are saying. 2. Little Piney Creek- I catch smallmouth bass often throughout the stream, sometimes right around Lane Spring. They are common enough to be worth targeting down in the Vida Slab area, part of the Blue Ribbon waters, and definitely still coldwater habitat. 3. West Branch of the Ausable River- A mountain river in the Adirondacks of New York. It comes straight out of the Adirondack High peaks, and during smallmouth spawning season most years, it is just coming down from spring snow-melt and the water temp is way below what they should be for a successful smallmouth spawn. And all of the tributaries are cold-water mountain streams. There aren't a lot of bass in there, but they are common enough that you're not too surprised when you catch one. What I'm not saying is that trout have a significant enough impact on native species that we should quit stocking them. There just isn't any evidence to support that. But to say that, as a rule, there can't be a reproducing smallmouth population in a coldwater stream just isn't true. I don't know how bass spawn in these streams which are not their preferred habitat, but they do get the job done some way or another, at least in some cases.

I think rule #7 is also in order. If you are fishing a very productive pool on a crowded stream, and are catching fish right and left, it is common courtesy to give up the pool after a while and move on to give other fisherman a chance. This is especially important on trout parks and similar waters. Not doing so is known as "camping the pool", and it gets to be a little selfish.

I never said that there were only 9 trout left in the whole stream. I understand that there are also browns in Capp's Creek, and I also understand that no surveying method is 100% effective. But the shock-up study does show pretty clearly (and the MDC says this in their own words) that the rainbows are being taken out very quickly after stocking. I honestly don't know Capp's, so I can't confirm this with personal experience, but I don't have any reason to believe the MDC isn't telling the truth. And I asked you a question pretty clearly, and you chose not to answer. Here again- Why would you be opposed to having a short catch and release area within a long White Ribbon stretch? What harm could that cause? If you can answer me that question, then I'll be a lot closer to understanding your opinion. " Why would you put C&R regulations to work on Capps or Hickory and NOT do it on Crane, Mill, Barren Fork, etc? If you can answer those questions, we might be able to talk." Drew, in another thread awhile back I suggested we do exactly that. But that does seem like a topic for a different thread, not this one. And I want to be really clear that I'm not asking that the entire White Ribbon stretches become catch and release, just a 1/4 or 1/2 mile portion.

How could you possibly not see his point? It's laid out in pretty simple terms- some of these streams are getting darn near fished out between stockings. MDC shocking data supports that-nine rainbows being left in one of them after catch and keep fisherman got through. You can choose to disagree, but I think you have to at least admit that there's a point there. I have just one simple question for you. Why are you opposed to making a short portion of White Ribbon areas C&R? What is the problem with leaving 2/3 or 3/4 of the water as White Ribbon with just a short stretch of catch and release? It would provide at least a short area where you'd be sure to find some fish long after stockings-something valuable that wouldn't do much at all to hurt bait and catch and keep fisherman. If we could have that, I'd be happy. I have no problem with bait fisherman, and I honestly don't want to see a solution that leaves them high and dry. So would you be opposed to that, and if so, why?

Would it be totally evil to suggest that the Walmart brand (I believe they call it "Courtland Fairplay") works perfectly alright, and is pretty darn cheap to boot? I'll happily go to a fly shop and pay good money for well tied flies, but not leaders or tippet. I do like to have flourocarbon around sometimes for nymphing, but I consider that an accessory as opposed to a necessity. Many times when I'm out fishing I'll have nothing besides one spool of 6x mono. Simplicity is important. To be fair, lately I have been breaking that simplicity a little by carrying a spool of 3x for streamer fishing.

Good choice. I just don't think the fishing is very good down there. On one or two occasions it has been good to me, but most of the time it's an uphill battle just to find a couple fish. Maybe the habitat isn't good or maybe I'm just fishing it wrong, but anytime I fish the Meramec it's gonna be between the park and Dry Fork. It is a pretty appealing stretch of river at first sight, but the water is just too warm there in the summer. I just don't think there is much potential for significant carryover there. I may just be done with Meramec trout altogether. The Current is well worth the extra hour- and if I don't have that extra hour, I'll choose Blue Spring instead.

I don't look down upon bait fisherman, and I think it's important to have stretches of river where you guys can fish. Bait fishing is a lot of fun in some circumstnaces and a perfectly legitimate way to fish. And I think the White Ribbon stretch of the Eleven Point is probably big enough where it can sustain bait fishing pressure and some fish kept. The big rivers aren't really the streams I'm thinking of when I'm talking about scaling back bait use and catch and keep pressure. It's the small streams that can really be devastated by a lot of folks taking their limit. I don't need to drag out all the statistics about catch and release survival rates from bait vs. artificials. I don't have anything against bait fisherman and it really would be a shame to scale back their opportunities on the smaller streams I'm talking about. But the science of fish management does have to come into the equation somewhere.

I got ya. No offense taken.

I use 6x exclusively for trout, the cheapest I can find. Valuable money spent on tippet (I'm of the opinion it's all about the same) is money that I can't spend on flies or gas money to get to the stream. I know sometimes you can go heavier than 6x, but you never really need to unless you're fishing big streamers or going after smallmouth. And I do think that the light tippet is a real key to success on clear water streams like the upper Current when you're fishing small flies. It doesn't seem to matter so much if you're fishing something #12 or larger, or if the water is a bit off color. Tippet size also doesn't seem to matter very much in broken water like riffles and pocket water.

I knew someone was going to post something to that effect. By the way, I have never purchased an Orvis product in my life.

Fair enough.

I honestly think Drew has a point when he says that trout divert attention from the management of native species. It's a fair point (which given my screen name, I obviously disagree with) and in the final analysis he may have the only truly clear-cut, uncompromising position anyone has taken on the issue. As much as I disagree, maybe we shouldn't attack him for having a viewpoint that is different from ours.

That sucks. I have experienced the same thing many times. Sometimes if it's someone who clearly just doesn't know, it can pay to explain, but most of the time it's best to just move on if it's someone who is just clearly being a jerk. Or if your in a bad mood, you can always cast right at them with a #2 Beadhead streamer. Sometimes they'll go into your backing:)

I've made my point as well as I can make it, and I don't see the thread going anywhere particularly good from here on. I have no interest in attacking your character I'm sure your a nice enough guy. It's just that I'm just trying to make a point about trout management and you're trying to make the discussion revolve around my fishing skills or lack there of. Forgive me if I got a little annoyed.

I don't entirely agree with your statement that White Ribbon streams couldn't sustain trout populations without stocking. Did you read the example I gave about Little Piney? It really is proof positive that some put and take streams could be transformed into wild trout fisheries. But you're right that not all White Ribbon streams could support that. Those streams should be placed in three categories in my opinion. 1.Streams that could support a quality "resident" trout population, meaning that they would be stocked once or twice a year instead of 10 or 12, but the daily limit would be reduced to 2 with a 15" minimum-Red Ribbon management, except that the fish stocked would be more likely to be rainbows than browns. 2. White Ribbon streams that have certain areas that could support a good resident fishery-in those case, use Troutfiend's idea and put in a short C&R stretch, and manage the rest of it as it is now. 3 White Ribbon fisheries with little or no carry-over capacity. For example Stone Mill Spring Branch or the White Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney. Continue to manage those as they are presently being managed. So I'm not entirely in favor of eliminating White Ribbon areas. I would just like to see them changed. And can anyone really argue with troutfiend when he says that the best way to "share the resource" is to practice C&R?

Cell phones have their advantages, but I have to say mine stays in the car as well. The insurance it would give me in case of an emergency just isn't worth having the darn thing around. It just gets in the way of what I'm trying to do out there-getting away from all the crap.

Chief, you're simply not being intellectually honest. I don't mean to be harsh, but you're reducing my point to something that I just didn't say. I did mention that I prefer Blue Ribbon waters to White Ribbon waters , but I never said that I couldn't catch fish on White Ribbon streams. But in any case, that is peripheral to my argument. I'm a lot more worried about the health of the fishery whether or not I'm catching fish. And put and take is simply not a viable method of managing a healthy fish population. I am not saying that I want waters to be managed differently so I can catch my fish, I'm saying that I don't like seeing quality water managed in a way that allows the population to be constantly depleted. I think it is better if our streams have a steady, healthy trout population instead of a cycle of stocking and population depletion.

Whatever. I'm not particularly interested in debating whether or not I'm a good fisherman. Maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but that's not really at issue. I can tell you that I have spent a lot of time fishing put and take waters a long time after stocking after the catch and keep guys have taken their fish already, and it's just not anything close to what you'd find on a Blue Ribbon stream with similar habitat. I'm not saying that there aren't fish to be caught, I'm just saying it could be a lot better. That some of these smaller spring-fed streams that are currently managed White Ribbon waters with unstable trout populations could support good populations of resident trout can't really be disputed. The Blue Ribbon stretch of the Little Piney used to be put and take, but the state stopped stocking that stretch and put in Blue Ribbon regs, and sure enough, within just a couple years, there was a very viable wild trout population. What was once a stream that suffered immensely from large takes of fish is now a nice stable, little fishery. Every one I've talked to is much more happy with it's current management than its past put and take days.It's a perfect example of what we can do if we manage these streams better. To make the catch and keep folks happy, the MDC stocked a stretch further downstream. Still appeasement, yes, but the end result was much less damaging. This water isn't capable of supporting trout year-round, but it does give the bait fisherman a place to fish fall-spring. It seems like a perfectly fair arrangement. So what do you really want? Do you want these little creeks to undergo a constant cycle of stocking and population depletion, or do you want them to have quality populations of wild or resident trout? The choice seems pretty clear to me, and we aren't going to achieve it through put and take management.

I haven't seen this topic on OAF yet, and I thought it might be a good one. What's your favorite hatch? Mine is the long, drawn out mixed hatches of Blue-Winged Olives and Tan Caddis that the upper Current River sees each fall and spring. I'll start out in the early morning swinging soft-hackles or fishing little nymphs, and switch over to the dries when the bugs start to pop late morning, an Elk Hair Caddis if that's what the fish are rising to, or a tiny Adams if it's mostly the Olives. On a good day, the hatch will last until evening, never ridiculously heavy, but heavy enough to get the fish looking up. This tends to happen best on chilly, cloudy days, preferably with a bit of mist or light rain. That also happens to be the days that most fisherman aren't out on the river-a happy coincidence. I'll be down there in a couple weeks to see if I can hit it. I'm interested to see some other opinions.

That's not what I've experienced. Fishing a stream with a well managed population of resident or wild trout is nothing like fishing for the remnants on an abused put and take creek. I've experienced plenty of both and there is just no comparison.