jeb

I didn't say not to develop them. I only said we should try to understand the downsides of them as much as possible before hand. Much of the movement towards alternatives is driven by the "green" agenda. So it makes sense to me not to rush into it before trying to know what impacts it will have. It does not make any sense to pay more for our energy, which we certainly will with alternatives, and still have high levels of environmental damage being done to get it.

Yeah, heaven forbid anyone should be concerned with what it costs. Obviously I was answering the broader question you asked by left out of the quote, to wit: The point is all of these technologies have an impact on our environment. How big those may be is just about impossible to say up front. Patently false. I never said solar was "bad". I said it has issues, both in application and environmental impact, that need to be figured out. Seems like you just like to gloss over any issues with anecdotes about basketball hoops, etc. That's more the emotional level type thinking than the common sense approach.

Confused on what you mean here. Are you paying them $100 a month to lease it? Those are some heavy incentives from the govt. Just more and more debt, I guess. So this is for a business, not residential? The problem is that we won't know exactly how much larger the impact will get as the demand would grow. The mining of minerals would grow exponentially, harsh chemicals from manufacturing disposal issues (especially in the countries where they will be made), disposal of the panels at end of life (they don't last forever), massive tracts of land required for the farms, environmental impacts for storage cells, etc. I look at it like ethanol. We did not realize all the downsides to it until after the fact. The green movement was all about ethanol. Now that we've seen it's impacts on food prices and how that impacts impoverished nations and even our poor, the environmental impact of farmers planting more margainal land to corn since the prices are so high, etc, it's not quite as pretty of a picture. The point is all of these technologies have an impact on our environment. How big those may be is just about impossible to say up front.

Solar's dust to dust environmental impacts are not pretty, though, as we've already discussed. If you're into this for lessening the environmental impact, this is likely a poor choice. If you're just in it to see us buying less oil from outside sources, solar is a good looking option to supplement a small part of our power grid. But until the storage issue is licked, it's not going to make much difference. That and the space needed for what will have to be huge solar farms.

But some here seem to be advocating starting on new infrastructure to support some of the alternatives, even though they are not ready for prime time. Yet. I agree with you that it's just too early to start talking about that. We need to have many more hard questions answered before we can go there. I get the feeling this is an emotional issue to far too many. It's the pie in the sky, let's do something even if it's wrong because it feels so good mentality. I'm all for less dependence on foreign energy sources, but let's get it right the first time. We can't afford what we're doing now, let alone wasting money charging off in the wrong direction.

Exactly right. Which is why it's referred to as more religion than science in it's current state of development. And why I won't debate it here anymore, either. Just wasted keystrokes. Plus, it's agains the rules here to do so. Really surprised this thread hasn't been nuked, actually. Yes, I can visualize them, but they've been being visualized for many years now without much to be shown for it. Storage issues problems, chief among them. I hope they do solve some of those problems, as I've said, sooner rather than later. But I can't see making claims that some particular altnernative MIGHT be cheaper IF we can finally solve some major issues. I was more curious about if there were real promise of that given what we KNOW today.

We did not take the boat. Viney is a nice campground, and does not seem to get as crowded as the ones on the main roads, like Eagle Rock. We spent most of our time tooling around the area. Went up to Bass Pro in Springfield. Spent like $300, but not a dime of it on fishing stuff. They need to pull that womens clothing section out of the store. :-) We did fish some from shore today, though, at the Viney ramp. Only from like 6am - 7am. 5 keeper spots, and she actually caught one of them! Once the sun came up, I don't think we could cast far enough. Although I was really getting them out there with my Calais DC and NRX853. I'd guess in the 80 yard range. Tough to set the hook with that much line out, though! All the fish came on plastic crawfish baits. She was t-rigged, I was c-rigged. Glad you found them, Bill. And thanks again for sharing.

Just google 'debunking global warming'. Look, we all know we're not going to change each others minds on the whole global warming mess. So not much sense discussing it, really. How about we get back to alternative energy sources. I'm still waiting to hear about these claimed sources that may be cheaper, and more stable, than fossil fuels, as has been suggested.

I have little doubt that many here firmly believe as MFU, that the world is still flat. There is a lot of evidence to the contrary, though. Too much to be ignored by those not blinded the "consensus" sceince.

Probably more on the tour end. My son and I would be cool with the wild stuff, but the girls, not so much. I did some VERY wild caving in SE MN where I used to live. Was with the president of the MN speleological society. They were trying hard to freak me out as a newbie to it. I'm not the least bit claustrophobic though. So I enjoyed it, but it did not light a fire in me or anything.

Who is "Dylan"? Hopefully you're not talking about a music personality in reference to science! You know, the thing about science is that you don't know what you don't know until you know it. I'm quite certain, for example, that the "scientest" of the day that believed the earth was flat knew it as a fact that it was. Right up until they were proved dead wrong. Of course, many hertics were burned at the stake before they admitted it. Yeah, I know we'd all like to think we've moved beyond that, but the reality is we have not. Climate change/Global Warming is simply a religion at this point. I hope that changes some day. It would be awesome to be able to understand the climate and weather enough to actually predict things accurately. We are FAR from that at this point in climate science, though.

My son and his wife are coming down from MN the week of the 4th. They like to go caving. Last time they were here, we visited Cosmic Cavern, over on the other side of Eureka Springs a few miles. Was not too impressed. Hour tour was mostly standing in one spot for 10 minutes while the guide yacked at us about history of the Ozarks, move 50' and repeat. Pretty small cave, really. I'd like to find something that is a bigger cave and not such a commercialized experience. So let me know if you have any recommendations. Probably no more than a 2 hour drive from Rogers. Thanks!

That's not going to be an issue. If fossil fuels ever do become truely even a little bit scarce, the prices will skyrocket. And I'm not talking about when it's gone. It will be when something like Saudia Arabia's output capacity goes down and they can't do anything about it. That's what will truely drive the adopting of alternative fuel source. It's called market driven. It's what built our country into what it is. Or was, rather.

If by develop you mean research it, than you have not been reading very closely. I certainly support research. But it has to show a clear path to profitability at some point if it's ever going to reach prime time or it just will not work. It's just common sense. Not sure I agree with you, but again I'll ask, are you really seriously thinking some form of altnerative energy is going to end up being cheaper than what we have now? Again, I think that is terribly naive. I've never heard anyone make such a claim. What you hear all the time is that we need fossil fuel prices to rise to make the alternatives seem more affordable. So if you're concerned about the price of energy NOW being a drag on the economy, wait until we have to start paying for the alternative versions! Another huge drag on the economy is all the regulations companies have to deal with in this country, along with the horrendous corporate tax rates. See my comments above. Energy prices are not going to be cheaper when and if we ever get alternate sources figured out. Maybe that will be incentive enough to open up more drilling of our own reserves. Yeah, I know, I said drilling, and using our own resources! I'm really quite shameless about it, too. But I do agree with you mostly on this one. And if you'd read what I had posted so far, you know the reason I'm in favor of researching alternatives is primarily to see the USA become energy independent. Very much looking forward to that day. As I've said a few times now, I also support research. I think we're probably already spending too much on it, but that's symantics, IMO. I do truely hope we see a breakthough sooner rather than later. I know the storage issue has been a huge one for years. We've been looking for the magic pill there for probably close to 20 years now. I'm starting to wonder if it will ever be possible. Lots of smart folks have worked on it, and trillions have likely been spent. And yet very little has changed in the battery world. Some progress for sure, but the good ones are still fairly large and quite expensive. Maybe someday. Hey, I hope you're right. I do. But I've never heard anyone make that claim. Quite the opposite, really. Please elaborate. Good with that, as long as ALL means new sources, too. You mean like enforced on the nations taking away our jobs because of all our regulations? Oh, that's right, we can't do that. So the China's of the world will still use the cheaper energy and laugh all the way to the bank. This reminds me of a story in the news lately. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/business/energy-environment/companies-face-fines-for-not-using-unavailable-biofuel.html This is the kind of thing that happens when you pass regulations that you have no idea if they can be met. Lunacy. I understand that's your opinion. And I want to see us less dependent, too. But charging down an unkonwn path, wasting trillion of dollars in the process, could be much worse. Let's do the research FIRST! Make sure we have a logical progression to get where we want to go. Throwing stuff on the wall and hoping it sticks is no way to chart our future. IMO.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said short term. None of the alternatives will be profitable ever on their own unless the prices of fossil fuels continue to rise, at least with the current technology. The break through we really need, IMO, is storage. Solar and wind are both way to sporadic to count on without it. You're right about that. I don't believe man has much of anything to do with the global heating and cooling cycles. I believe in studying climate, but there is far more unknown than known about it at this point. So running around saying the sky is falling when there is absolutelty no proof of it hardly seems a good idea to base a new power grid on. Heck, even the name of the religion has changed from Global Warming to Climate Change. I laugh every time I hear the term climate change. Talk about covering your basis! The priests say "Wamer? Man caused it! Colder? Man caused it. Bad man! Hmmm, what's that? What caused the last ice age when man wasn't here? Heritic! Don't try to confuse us with logic." I did not criticize them. I merely said they are not viable at this point so it makes no sense to go running down a path, spending money wildly, hoping it pans out. If it's more expensive than what we have now, it will not fly. It's just common sense. Even your links are full of doubts about their own validity. 80 goes to 50, and then big if's around, as I said above, storage capacity. LOL. Sounds like the modern day "consensus" science outlook. You must believe! If you don't, you will be cast out and ridiculed! Don't worry about the facts, we'll figure it all out sooner or later, we think.

They don't make money, they only take it. And Wayne is right, being efficient is far from a priority. I know of so many examples of old, entrenched govt employees that won't use new IT solutions that are available to them, but demand the old paper and #2 pencil route instead. In a real world business, those people would be fired. Or the company would go under. But not the govt. They're too big to fail. I understand your point though, about them enabling technologies that occasionally allow for profitable spinoff's in the private sector. That does happen. But they it's not all peaches and cream. For example, all these regulations that have been forced on businesses the last couple of decades that are not coming home to roost in the shipping of so much of our manufacturing going overseas. "Oh, it's just one more regulation. Business will suck it up and consumers will pay. Don't worry!". Well, now we know there are consequences to those actions. Maybe, maybe not. There is no one size fits all rule. There are far more wasted govt projects that never came to anything than there are huge success stories.

Current numbers are showing 100's of years of supplies of oil. So I don't see the need for a headlong rush. Let's take our time and get it right. It costs the govt more to have them working at nothing. But you should also realize that getting away from traditional energy sources will also cost a lot of private jobs, putting them on the govt dole. I'd like to see them have to work for the money, like back in the depression. Work in parks, whatever. At least after a few months of being on benefits. I bet that would incent them to take a job that may be a little beneath them! You're right on there. We're spending money like drunken sailors right now, just running it all onto the taxpayers limitless credit card. That has to end.

I've never listened to "right wing radio" shows. They are not talking points. They are common sense. We simply do not have a viable alternative that can make any real difference in our energy needs. As I have said, hopefully we will someday. You seem to have the answers. So tell us what viable alternative "green" source of power in today's world that is going to replace the energy that our traditional sources are supplying?

You're right. Increasing onerous govt regulations, spending money we don't have and trying to force solutions on us that have not been well thought out will continue to drive our once great nation into the ditch. Sad to watch, really.

No, they don't. Well, they do own BassX Lures, and they have a website. HLS does have a Facebook page now, but no shopping through it. I also like HLS for much of my tackle needs, but TackleWarehouse is hard to beat for an online source.

Yeah, I combed the banks today. I noted strongly which way the winds were blowing yesterday, and chased the shores WAY outside of that probable drift range today. I didn't really spend any time today looking in deeper water, just along the shores. I idled or used the trolling motor close to shore and in the trees for 7-8 miles or better, I guess. Pulled into an empty dock for a while in the worst of the rain. Most likely area of loss is in the Devils Backbone area, I'd guess. I appreciate you guys keeping your eyes open. There is NO question this combo is floating around out there somewhere. At least if it hasn't been found already by someone who is beneath giving me a call about it.

Wow, you don't really think that some alternative energy source is going to be cheaper than our current sources, do you? Really? I'd consider that extremely naive. The only that brings some of these even close to looking over the fence of viability is higher oil costs making them look affordable. And then only with massive taxpayer "incentives". How exactly do you figure that? What is going to drive them to cleaner power sources? I don't see it. And even if they do, it'll certainly not be any of the "green" alternatives. It'll be hydro and nuclear. Nuclear power was easy for the power companies to see were profitable. And when we get an alternative that clearly shows that again, it will be a winner. Until then, throwing money at them will not make it work. The economics have to be there. Way too many if's and maybes in there for it to be realistic. We're talking about something that needs to replace the power grid, not help someone out in the open spaces stay off the grid a little bit. Why is that? Again, I'm not against research on a modest basis. But it's just plain foolish to start throwing massive amounts of money around that WE DO NOT HAVE just hoping it will stick somewhere.

Quillback and I were out on the Rock yesterday in his new Phoenix, and somehow one of my rods bounced off the back deck when were going down the lake from Big M to a little south of the Devils Backbone. My fault for not finding a way to secure them better. I spend a fair amount of time and money getting higher end stuff to fish with, but this one really hurt. It a Shimano Stella spinning reel on an NRX 822DSR. My premier spinner. Leaves a big hole in my lineup. I have rod floats on all my rods, and they do work. They float the entire rod/reel easily. We looked for probably 2 hours yesterday, but it was pretty windy and we didn't find it. I spent several more hours up there myself today in my boat, but still came up blank. I have tags on my combos with a "reward if found" and my phone number on them, so hoping someone finds it. But if y'all are fishing in that area, keep your eyes open. Or if you hear of anyone finding something like that, please let me know. The whole thing has me pretty depressed. Kind of took the wind out of my sails.

Show me any of the alternatives to date that are even looking at the words "might be viable someday" that are will not impact the environment. I say better the devil we know until we get something real to look at. I don't understand your point. Is someone claiming the price of gas is going to go down? I don't understand how you can make such claims when we don't even have a clue yet on what may be "the" answer. For all you know, whatever the new source(s) are could be far worse in those regards. Wind and solar are far from being viable alternatives AT THIS POINT. And even if they were, they have big environmental impacts, too. And they can be very sproadic based on the weather.

Oh, totally agree with you there! I was talking about if a home owner had to buy it themselves, with no incentives or govt candy being handed out. That's one of them. But there are more. Mining the material is going to be a huge impact, if it really takes off. Here's one article, but I've seen much harsher anaylsis done, too: http://www.ehow.com/info_8428047_negative-impacts-solar-energy-environment.html