parachiteadams39

And "everyone" in New York State can celebrate that their government's changed the rules "in midstream" on landowners and, essentially, taking some of their property rights away from them. Yahoo! Score one for the Tyranny of the Majority! Tough luck for that "one person" who was making mortgage payments on his land all these years, tending it, caring for it. I belongs to US now! More seriously, if we're going to look to New York as an example of how we should run things in Missouri, God help us. I would also say that having seen pictures of Crane Creek really isn't sufficient. I know of one place that, at the moment, is a sharp right angle turn about 3 feet wide. There's no way you could float that without portaging onto, you guessed it, undeniably private land. Unless, perhaps, you have a 3 foot canoe...

http://aglaw.missouri.edu/Missouri%20Criminal%20Trespass%20Laws.pdf This is an interesting precis of Missouri trespassing law from the Ag Law Department at the University of Missouri.

This is from the MDC page mentioned earlier: Obtaining legal access does not eliminate your responsibility to respect private property while fishing or floating. The majority of Missouri’s stream frontage is privately owned. The establishment of a Special Black Bass Management Area does not automatically give an angler the right to trespass on privately owned stream frontage Also I would argue that the notion of Crane Creek as a "floatable" stream is fanciful at best.

The point is not about whether it's more egregious to poach deer from a deer stand or poach trout while wading on someone else's property. I agree that of these two acts the deer stand is more egregious, but they are both wrong and both illegal and, more important, both incredibly disrespectful and inconsiderate. The point was meant to convey the sense that a private landowner has made a signficant investment (and often significant sacrifices) in order to own their property. One of the rewards of this investment and these sacrifices is to be able to use the property as they wish, when they wish. If the landowner decides to go fishing of an afternoon they should be able to do so without worrying that someone who has NOT made the investments and sacrifices they've made to own this land has fished their favorite hole.

Hmm. Trespassing as art. That sort of sums up the attitude that makes private land owners close their land to everyone, even the honest folks (like our original poster) who are trying to do right, who don't want to tresspass and who ask persmission before going on private land. As for the point regarding slavery: I'd say comparing your desire to go fishing on other people's land to the injustice of slavery is, at best, a stretch,

You are of course welcome to your opinion of the laws as they stand. But the fact is that the laws as they stand treat a non-navigable stream running through private property differently from a public sidewalk. Again, you may disagree with the law, but the law is the law. The analogy I would make along the lines of the one you've made would be the walk going up to your front door. It's connected to and similar in appearance to the public sidewalk but uncategorically your property. If someone walks on the city side walk that's one thing. If someone plops down on the sidewalk in your front yard and decides to have a picnic (or go fishing) that's another.

I think your critique of my point has some validity. My aim was more to give city dwellers among us a sense of how it feels to find someone has fished your favorite hole a couple of hours before you planned to or put up a deer stand on your land: it feels like you've been violated and someone has sat in your easy chair. I agree that it's important for landowners to post their land -- even more so after reading how blase a lot of people on this forum are about trespassing! But there has certainly been much discussion in this thread of the idea that if I know (or suspect) it's private but it's not posted can I "get away with it." And in that sense I think our points come together: if your front door isn't locked (I don't lock mine), if you don't have a no trespassing sign at the corner of your drive, if there isn't a fence between your neighbor's yard and yours, is it then acceptable for someone to come in to your house and crack open a brewski? Of course not. Ditto all other forms of private property. Again I'm about common decency. I agree that land owners could be more polite and that they should post their property. But I also know for many of us the fiftieth time we have to ask a trespasser to leave our land -- even when posted -- we tend to lose patience. It may be your first time trespassing on our land, but it's not our first time dealing with it and it gets really old.

Legal splitting of hairs aside, and putting aside the basic fact that our constitution and indeed the very founding of our country are grounded very much on the basis of strong protection of property rights I would ask this question: How you would feel if one day you came home from work to watch your favorite TV show and found me in your easy chair, drinking a beer from your fridge, flipping through channels. And then, when you were offended, how would you feel if I got offended because after all you weren't using the TV and anyway what gives you the right to say this is "your" house or "your" beer or "your" TV? That may help elucidate the perspective for folks who own land with living water, pay taxes on it, pay a mortgage on it and simply want to be able to use it without going down to their favorite spots to find that they've been fished/hunted/littered by someone who is, frankly, freeloading off of their investment of time and money. The fact is that everyone on this forum expects their property to be respected. No one on this forum would welcome me in their easy chair of an evening. Likewise beyond splitting legal hairs simple decency dictates that you accord other peoples' property the same respect you expect them to accord yours.

As you come down stream from the Trestle as soon as there's an open, over grown field to the right of the creek (with about 20 yards of woods between creek and field) you are trespassing. If you look at this area on Google maps, follow highway 413 out of town. Just where it bends to the southeast there is a rectangular building/parking lot on the east side of the road. (This is the big Funeral Home there.) If you go due east from there on the map you will see an isolated field just on east side of the railroad tracks. This field is private property, all of the creek to the east of it is private and all of the creek all the way down to Swinging Bridge Road is private. Another way to look at it is that there's about 500 yards of actual creek available downstream from the trestle. This might be hard to reckon given the changes in direction, but if you were to reckon 300 yards you would probably be ok. Another way -- if you have a compass -- is at the downstream end of city-owned land the creek heads E-NE and then turns back pretty sharply to the SE. At this turn you are about 100 feet up stream of private property. With the greatest respect it is up to those of us who use the creek to make sure we know the boundaries. That's why it's so great that this question got asked in the first place. If you're not sure whether it's public or private you should assume it's private and fish elsewhere. The more private property is abused the more owners will close it alogether, even to people who ask.

I didn't mean to imply you'd be shot for trespassing, but you could be caught in the crossfire! (Though I have heard of the guy who owns the Dairy Farm taking target practice above the heads of trespassers!) Or rustling around trying to find a snagged fly you might be mistaken for a deer...

There are TWO private land holdings between the end of city-owned land and the Dairy Farm. I know that part of the creek pretty well and I only know of one Y in that part of the creek and it's WELL onto the property of the second land owner (who I happen to know does not take kindly to trespassers...) In other words if you reach the "Y" you've already trespassed on about 800 feet of creek on one person's property and are now about 200 feet on to a second person's. I also happen to know that on that part of the creek the landowners are serious turkey and deer hunters. So a bad idea to trespass at any time, but an even worse idea this time of year.

When fishing a creek like Crane the first thing to do is to catch a fish, any fish. So good for you Paola Cat. And the little ones are the prettiest of all. A shame one was snagged but who among us hasn't done that? There's a certain admirable honesty in showing that. And I know this will bring all sorts of opprobrium down on me but: dry fly is the hardest way to catch them. So a small fish on a dry fly is a lovely thing to do and is, arguably, as hard to pull off as catching a bigger fish on a San Juan worm or Egg Pattern. Nothing wrong with either one but surely it's just as unfair to slam someone for catching small fish on a dry as it is to slam someone for catching big fish on a San Juan worm. BTW the snake tales are not tales: last fall I ran into a herpetologist who studies cotton mouths and he said there's no better place in Missouri to find cotton mouths. He had a 5 gallon bucket with a snake as big around as my calf. So they are there. Spend money in Crane.

I don't think it's out of line to have asked the question. I think troutbum has posted enough on here that people have a good sense of his ethics, and this should be taken as an opportunity for him and everyone else to remind folks who don't fish for wild trout on a regular basis that the rules & ethical standards at Crane are different. I also know there are wild trout streams that are entirely closed to fishing during spawning season. I'm not a fisheries biologist but the reasoning here must be either 1) to prevent unscrupulous fishermen from fishing the redds or 2) because even if fish are not the redds they may still be exhausted from earlier spawning activity and therefore vulnerable. Again, I don't profess to have the answers. Maybe there's a biologist who can give us the answers here. But where the nurturing & protection of this resource we all "respect and cherish" is concerned I don't think it's ever out of line to ask a question.

Yep Bass Pro is cool and of course Grizzly where you can look at all that shiny Chinese equipment! Aurora is closest but yep, slip pickings as far as recreation. Wal-mart.

Fishing was pretty tough...but hey a bad day fishing beats...

Had lunch at Crane Cafe today. Pork and Beef, which is a hamburger with fried ham on top! Good stuff! Two guys, two pork and beef, two fries and two drinks, $11.50. And it was A LOT of food. Subway can't beat that. Oh and we went fishing too...

I got this email this morning from the SW Missouri Stream Co-Ordinator Andrew Branson. It's not excatly firey but it does seem that it's on MDC's radar. I don't know if they are the ones to "bug" about this. It seems to me especially those of you who live in SW Missouri should contact state legislators. Anyway, here's the email I got: New reservoirs are just one way to address the region’s need for additional water supply. Others include accessing water from existing reservoirs and more efficient use of the current water supplies. The Missouri Department of Conservation shares your concerns regarding the potential impact of proposed reservoirs on Crane Creek, Shoal Creek and other streams mentioned in the study. We intend to work with the Tri-State Coalition, Missouri Department of Natural Resources, and other state and federal agencies to fully consider the proposals and to pursue water supply options that would avoid or minimize impacts on streams such as Crane Creek and Shoal Creek. The Tri-State Coalition and other partners contracted for a study to identify potential reservoir sites in southwest Missouri to meet the projected water supply needs as the region (southwest Missouri, northeast Oklahoma, and southeast Kansas) grows and the demand for water increases. Here are some relevant links that you may find informative: News-Leader: Coalition zeroing in on future water sources http://www.news-leader.com/article/2009907080435 (This link may no longer be active.) http://www.news-leader.com/assets/pdf/DO13816678.PDF Map of Potential Sites: http://www.news-leader.com/assets/jpg/DO13813778.JPG Joplin Globe: Water coalition notes reservoir locations posed by consultants http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/local_story_188215152.html Thank you for your interest in Missouri streams, Andrew Branson Stream Coordination Biologist Missouri Department of Conservation 2901 West Truman Blvd P.O. Box 180 Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180 tel: 573-522-4115, ext. 3501 fax: 573-526-0990

I was just reading a book on stream restoraton and it mentions in there that when they're trying to determine the positive economic impact of a trout stream they typically estimate anglers will spend $25-$45 per day per person in the area. So this gives a good "goal" for trying to have a positive impact.

Remember that "Blue Ribbon Water" doesn't mean "Public Water."

Hey Friends of Crane Creek -- just a thought that if you look around Crane and at the real estate listings the town seems to be having a tough time. Like lots of towns, I guess. But just a suggestion: it is the folks in Crane whose tax dollars support the park many of us use and whose good will helps keep the rest of the creek in good shape. I think it's important that folks in Crane see the Creek as a positive resource. This is even more important when we hear about the possibility of a reservoir being built using the creek. God forbid that the local folks think: "Hey what's that fishing creek really matter to me any way?" So when you're in Crane spend money and let people know the fishing is what's brought you there and brought money to their business. Fill up the gas tank, buy a gew-gaw for your wife at one of the flea markets, buy a Coke at the general store, buy lunch at the restaurant there in downtown. If you're really Crane Creek crazy when you need a new truck buy it in Crane... The bottom line is that it's the locals who will always ultimately control this resource and anything we can do to make the resource valuable to them (and that means M-O-N-E-Y) will help preserve the resource.