eric1978

Will do. Great tip and thanks Joe.

These are interesting points, and honestly I hadn't thought about warming being an issue on this topic. I do agree with Chief that if the water had substantially warmed in the Meramec in the last several decades, that could have been a factor in making the river more hospitable for spots. I'd be interested in seeing average temperature trends on the river over the last century, if they exist. I'll check into it. I'm pretty sure that scientists say that the earth is about 1 degree F warmer, on average, than it was a century ago. That's significant in the sense that something is changing and we should be alarmed by that, but I'm not sure that that slight uptick in temperature would have a huge impact on migration, although I have heard some similar talk about the birds that Chief mentioned. Our planet is certainly changing, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear scientists attribute any number of biological anomalies to global warming. However, even if the lower Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse Rivers were, say, 5 degrees cooler than they are now, I think the spots could still easily survive and thrive in waters at that temperature. But the rivers couldn't have been 5 degrees cooler 50 years ago, and there weren't any spots in them then. I could really see the clearing of trees and other industrial and agricultural warming contributors having an impact on rivers such as the Bourbeuse or Big, which are slow moving and have no major springs. But the Meramec is very heavily spring-fed, and until the Bourbeuse and Big Rivers join the Meramec, I have to believe that the water temps are quite consistent year after year, since the majority of the flow is rising from beneath the earth. And I suppose that those springs are what is keeping the spots from spreading to the upper Meramec, while the Bourbeuse and Big Rivers are seeing spots way high up and approaching the headwaters. It's only a matter of time before they occupy the entire lengths of both those rivers. So we've found some common ground in terms of possible reasons the spots migrated to the Meramec. But all these reasons are still man-made reasons, and still make the spots non-native and invasive. If they migrated here because we made their migrational waterways cleaner and more hospitable through dams and clean-water acts, we are responsible for their presence. If they are spreading into waterways that used to be slightly too cool for them, but now find the temps perfect becase of deforestation or global warming, we're responsible for that as well. Any way you slice it, if it wasn't for man, the spots wouldn't be there, so it's up to man to fix the problem we created, in my opinion.

Chief, I know I vowed not to tangle with you, but I would really like to know, with all due respect (seriously), how you define native. It's always been my understanding, and I've never heard it considered any other way, that a species is native to a habitat when it either evolved there, or migrated there on its own without any assistance, directly or indirectly, by man. I don't dispute that smallmouth migrated to Ozark waters via the Ohio river system. I'm simply not familiar with the route they took to get here. I also suppose that they may have migrated here as little as several hundred years ago, although I believe they have been here much, much longer. I'm sure there is scientific evidence available that can estimate the length of time they have been in the region, I just haven't looked it up. The point is, though, that since they migrated here on their own, before man was a factor in this area, they ARE native. Spotted bass, on the other hand, migrated to the Meramec system because of circumstances created by man, therefore they are NOT native. And since they are not native, the impact that they have on the ecosystem is not natural, and therefore should be corrected. I'm all for the protection of all species of animals, in their appropriate habitat. If there was a way to remove invasive spotted bass and relocate them to their native habitat, that would be great with me. I don't have a problem with the fish because of how they look or smell or taste or whatever. I enjoy catching them like I enjoy catching a rock bass or other small species, as long as I know those fish are supposed to be there and are not thriving only to the detriment of the native species. My problem is that they have moved into a place they weren't meant to be and they are screwing it up.

With a 3.5 pound fish caught in a small river, that would be classified as a successful trip for me. I go out with the goal of catching one quality fish per trip, and he would definitely qualify. Too bad he wasn't a smallie, but a nice fish anyway. Sammies are good.

Depends on time of year, but in warmer months I love a 4" fluke in Arkansas Shiner or a translucent silvery-white Sammy; in winter a good quality brown hair jig and trailer. These are what I use on smaller smallmouth streams. Reservoirs a different story...

Can't imagine that ebay wouldn't have a million to pick from at good prices. I don't buy flies, but they have a ton of bass lures/tackle.

Depends on the day. I've had great days in October and horrible days in October. The fish can get a little finicky when they are transitioning to their winter holes. Sometimes it seems like they are going nuts and eating everything. Fall has been a little hit or miss for me. The water gets clearer, which doesn't help. Falling leaves can also be a pain. But they're still there, they're still eating, and they're still very catchable. Patience and confidence are key.

That's usually what I do, and that's why I'm not really familiar with the liveries' schedules. But my regular fishing buddy just had a baby and he's gonna be out of commission for a while, hence the need for the shuttle.

I actually wound up buying the Civil War one, and probably lost about two weeks of my life watching it over and over.

Just started watching some of Ken Burns' new documentary on America's National Parks tonight. It's really cool stuff and thought some of you guys might enjoy it. It's on PBS and I believe it's something like 12 hours long in 6 or so installments. Not sure about the schedule. DVR takes care of recording for me.

Thanks Hank. I'll check them out.

Very ambitious of you. I've thought about doing that before, but I think I would drop off the bike at the take-out, chain it up, then drive up to the put-in. Seems like it would be better to not have the bike as a floating partner. Either way, you were on the river today and drinking free beer, and I wasn't. Well done.

I'm planning a couple Meramec solo floats for this fall and/or early winter, and I'm trying to figure out how to get shuttles. I emailed a few liveries about schedules. Garrison's was the only to reply, they said they close October 17th. Anyone know any other places that are open year round on the upper to upper-middle Meramec that do shuttles?

Did you end up spending any time upstream?

A buddy and I took out a couple dozen last weekend. Only a couple hundred thousand left to go...

Any reports on how it went?

When I was driving home from a little trip on Tuesday, I saw a guy fishing about 100 yards east of the 44 bridge on the Bourbeuse. I was jealous, even after about 12 hours of fishing. So addicted.

On rivers where Earth decided long ago that spotted bass belonged, I agree with Chief completely (if indeed that was his intended point). They absolutely deserve the same protection as smallmouth. Spots on those streams have every right to be there even if they compete with a species I happen to be partial to. Even if it's true that spots, in their own native waters, prevent smallmouth from reaching larger sizes, I'm really okay with this, too. Would I like the smallmouth to be bigger and more numerous? Of course. But it doesn't really bother me because it's the way it's supposed to be. Man had nothing to do with making smallmouth smaller on average in streams where spots are native. The planet did that on its own. I have to go a step further and say that, if the tables were turned, and the smallies were invasive and the spots were native, I would begrudgingly take the same position that the invasive species needs to go. I have to admit that I would probably preach about how the smallies don't belong there and must be removed and then secretly release all the smallmouth back into the stream, but the point is that I would concede that it is not the natural order of things and therefore is in need of correction. So what I'm trying to say is that, yes, I do have an alterior motive for getting rid of spots. I'm a smallmouth angler. They are my gamefish of choice. But that doesn't change the fact that, smallmouth or no smallmouth, spotted bass simply were not meant to exist on the Meramec system. Al mentioned how the time it has taken for spotted bass to invade the habitat in question and negatively impact those ecosystems is no more than a blink in the grand scale of the biological history of a species. A million years from now, when humans are long gone, we also will have been just a blink in the timeline of life on Earth. But the impact of our existence will be perpetually realized through "the butterfly effect" of evolution. Some species we already or will have annihilated. Some species we created through interbreeding. Some species we relocated for agricultural purposes. We have changed the trajectory of floral and faunal evolution forever. And when we're all dead and gone, that won't really matter. The planet will go on, new species will emerge; others will continue to go extinct. On a long enough timeline, our impact on the planet is really not that important. The dinosaurs were wiped out without any help from man, but from a giant hunk of matter from space. It is estimated that 99.9% of all species that ever lived on the planet are extinct, and we had nothing to do with the vast majority of those species. But I personally believe, I guess because of some innate philosophical mechanism, that places as special as the Rockies or the Smokies or the Ozarks should be handled with kid gloves and aggressively protected. It's just not in me to shrug my shoulders and say, "yeah, we're screwing this place up, but so what?" There's very little pristine wilderness left in the world, and especially in America. You may think I'm some wacky liberal tree-hugger. But I have exotic hardwood floors. I drive a gas-guzzling pick-up. It's a socially acceptable way to live to consume and be wasteful, and I'm not about to move to some commune to live in a grass hut and eat bark off of trees just to make a point. But I do think it's our moral obligation, while we're here for our moment in the sun on this incredible rock hurling through space, to leave it, or at least what's left of it, as original as we found it. And that includes something so seemingly insignificant as protecting a single species of fish on a single river system on a single river-carved plateau, alterior motive or not.

OTF, Don't hold me to this, but I don't think there are many trout above Meramec Spring. There are smallies there, though. So if you want to get away from the crowds, you could wade above the park or hit the Huzzah or Courtois. I know that's where I'd be if I wasn't floating. Report back. Wish I could go tomorrow.

I don't personally have any experience on the streams in SWMO, so I won't be much help on that. I would suggest going to Google Earth, and go to some of the bigger streams in your area. From there, you can follow the river up or downstream and locate some of the tributaries flowing into it, and usually some possible accesses. You may have a hard time getting folks on here giving you specific names of small waters, since people are usually (and rightfully) protective of their favorite secret spots. As far as baits, presentations, tips and tricks, go back and read some of the previous threads. There is so much information on this forum that your head will be swimming in no time. Everyone has their own ideas about what works best, so it's really up to you to get out and test different techniques to find what works best for you. Good luck and happy fishing!

If you have a different definition of "native," please share it with the rest of us. You sure have a knack for turning conversation into personal arguments. It seems like you're much more interested in watching "punches fly" than talking about fishing. There wasn't an ounce of animosity on this thread until you chimed in. I respect everyone's opinion, including yours, and if I don't agree with you I'll try to state my case with facts instead of sarcastic personal attacks. I guess I just won't respond to any of your posts in the future, since you clearly think that either I don't have the right to, or that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron. The only thing your condescending attitude achieves is making people think you're insecure or egotistical, and it doesn't lend itself to an enjoyable time on the forum. So take care, sir.

I started a thread called "Fishing High Water" under the forum category "Other Ozark Streams," and in it I posted a picture of a little chubby smallmouth I caught the other day. He has the same white spot on the gill plate, and it was really the first time I'd noticed it. He came out of a Meremec system stream.

That's pretty much the definition of native. Plants and animals are only non-native when humans had something to do with their habitation.

Yes, they shock certain areas of the stream occassionally to collect data, but they don't shock the entire river. It would take a VERY long time to shock 100 or so miles of river and collect all the spots.

Got any 1/4 or 5/16?