eric1978

I don't know how many times or how many different ways it can be explained before you'll understand this: If humans did not inhabit the United States, there would be no spotted bass in the Meramec River System. Spotted bass we're given "the means available to them" by changes that MAN made on their waterways. I don't have an inherent problem with spotted bass as a species, and the larger ones that I have caught have been a lot of fun. I would love to spend a weekend on Table Rock catching those fat spots they got down there. But the spots that are invading the Meramec System rarely get over 12 inches, and are really just a nuicance in terms of fishing. They always seem to get to your lure before a bigger fish and they've ruined more perfect casts that should have resulted in a better fish than I can fathom. Occassionally you will find a spotted bass that has reached a greater length than the 12 inch mark, but they're not common, and they really don't offer any enjoyable angling opportunities. I apologize for my previous post. It was mean-spirited and sarcastic and inappropiate. I really can't figure out your position and I feel like all you do is oppose ideas for protection, so I lashed out at you. I'm frustrated by this issue, but you're allowed your opinion, whatever it is, so I'm sorry 'bout that.

Oh, I see. So you're all for protection on streams in your neck of the woods, but people who want protection on streams you're not likely to fish on the other side of the state are just whiners and are wasting their time.

Great. Nice work. Wow, your devotion to preserving our fisheries is just staggering. I hope you enjoy the moment you realize your oppositional position has brought to fruition nothing more that a detriment to the activity you proclaim to have interest in. You are part of the problem, not the solution. You should lie silent instead of pushing in opposition for only opposition's sake. You have no position. Why even post on OAF? Go gig some game fish, I'm sure you support that.

It was 28 BredMan, and it's GREAT when you have NO other option, though there are many other places I'd rather be fishing. Thanks Gavin...I've definitely got the FF "bug." Didn't take long, and I'm already totally addicted. Can't wait to get into some real fishing!

Agreed. MSA isn't going to be able to solve world hunger. It's a small group of devoted smallmouth anglers contributing the little bit that they can to support the cause. I don't know what they could have done to draw this negative tone. Lobby MDC? Hmmm... Don't care for MSA? Don't join MSA.

No, Chief, I don't have any link, and you know I was taking liberties when I said ONE biologist. I'm sure there are others involved. I know smallmouth aren't "endangered," but I'm reaching the point where I wouldn't hesitate to call them "threatened" in Ozark streams, generally speaking. I think other species are just as important and just as deserving of protection as smallmouth, especially if they are in more immediate trouble. But hey, I'm a smallmouth angler...it's one of my favorite things to do, so I guess it's no surprise I have stronger opinions about that species than others.

I assume you mean largemouth? Which lakes do you think are best for LM out there?

Kinda looks like the riversmallies forum. I don't mind it, but I have horrible problems with their image hosting...hope that's not the case.

It would tickle Cricket pink to get you guys thinking I caught them on worms fed with Powerbait, but fortunately he's full of baloney. #10 Olive Woolly Bugger, tied with my own hands. Make sure you bring some 10 pound splitshots if you plan to use them out there anytime soon. I don't know about Tillis. Probably never will, either. I'm not crazy about yuppies.

Out of pure boredom I drove out to Busch today to look at the frozen lakes...and yep, they were frozen. But someone was kind enough to open up a hole for me before I got there so I gave it a shot and I pulled a few out. It was better than staring at the computer all day. With the current cold front blowing in as I type this, and the freezing weather forecast for next week, I would suggest to the St. Louis boys to get on I-44 if you want to catch fish in the near future. Unless of course you wanna do the coffee-can-full-of-concrete-and-chain thing...which might not even be possible in a day or two. .

This idea was raised in the "enforcement" thread. I would support it, too, but it would never happen. It would be much tougher politically to get something like that done than to simply change regs. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Specifically, I'm happy they allocated the funds to pay for ONE biologist to study smallmouth in Ozark streams, for what it was worth, and I'm happy that they implemented SMAs on the few streams that they did. There's some credit, now I'd like to see them do better. You know where I stand politically Chief. I'm not a blanket anti-government kind of person, and I don't have a problem paying taxes to accomplish the things we all want and need but aren't willing to pay for voluntarily. I'd just like to see the money spent wisely and efficiently, and go toward the things it's meant to pay for. I don't mind paying personal property tax, but I have to say I'm disappointed that the pothole in front of my house has only grown in the last couple years. I pay to have my street maintained, and they're not doing it. We're on the same team, Chief. My wife is a public school teacher, and I support the public school system and its employees. But it has its problems, too, and I'm not averse to acknowledging them. I don't think you have to blindly defend every shortcoming of the MDC to be generally supportive of their existence and the implementation of their programs, which I am.

Hey Pat, where are you with that picture of the dead horse when I need you? Drew...MOTHER NATURE DIDN'T DO IT!!!! We did, therefore it's our responsibility to do what we can to fix it, period. I guess the Exxon-Valdez oil spill wasn't our problem either since it was Mother Nature that put that reef in its way, huh? Although it could never eliminate the problem, an SMA could help rivers like the Bourbeuse and the middle and mid-lower Meramec, along with the entire Big River (which had its SMA extended...go figure) by giving the smallmouth just a little bit more leverage in their battle. Like you, I don't see the spotted bass problem being solved, but we could tip the scales a bit by changing regulations. If it was up to me, I'd end one of the urban stocking programs and reallocate those funds to a team of MDC employees who would spend every Monday through Friday of their lives shocking stretches of the Meramec Basin and removing every spot they located. For the price of what it costs to stock one lake at Busch, I'm sure you could pay for one electro-shocking device, one jonboat and at least a few months of a biologist's salary. In fact, I know the perfect guy to do it...How about the agent that sits at lake 21 every time I fish there and reads a magazine in his truck for hours on end without getting out to check a license? How's that? Or I guess you'd be against that too for some reason...can't wait to hear it. Wouldn't you rather do something than nothing? Apathy helps zero.

I've heard stories about guys taking augers out to Busch and ice-fishing, but I don't know if they're true or if I'd really enjoy that. I'm surprised MDC wouldn't run people off of the ice. Maybe they're full of it, who knows.

So because I criticize MDC all of a sudden I don't give them any credit? I do! I guess I should stop envisioning what a stream was like 500 years ago and wishing that we could return it to that state. Look, guys like you and Al know way more about the history of our streams than I do, and I'll readily admit that. I don't have an ego problem. I learned something today. But the fact remains streams need a lot of help and tighter regulations is one thing that could help. Think I'll drop out of these threads for a while, since we've pretty much hit a wall and it's just going in circles. I get it, regulations aren't the only solution to the problems.

I'm not convinced that floods wash fish downriver all that much. Quite possibly and probably fry, but I think bigger fish lodge themselves under strongholds for the most part and ride it out. I'm sure some fish get swept downstream. I think the fact that some areas hold more fish than others has more to do with the available habitat and forage in each area than flooding. Fish can and do swim upstream in moderate flooding if they are seeking a better food supply or shelter. I think for the most part smallmouth live in the same general area all their lives, but have no evidence to speak of to back that up, except that I have caught the same easily identifiable fish out of particular holes years apart on several occassions. I've caught one fish on a stretch of the Huzzah three times, and he had the most distinctly deformed caudal fin that I could never forget it. He came out of the same exact hole on all three occassions, even though that hole had been drastically transformed several times due to severe floods over the period of a few years.

If I got desperate enough it wouldn't be beyond consideration. Just don't use the powerbait on the C&R lakes at Busch, because it's illegal right now.

I think I should probably clarify that I am 100% supportive of all Big River improvement projects...I was just trying to point out the inconsistency that some rivers which have better habitat are crossed of the list and others aren't. There is no "perfect" stream, so MDC has a reason to eliminate any of them from consideration for one reason or another under their current rationale.

Gavin's right about the ice. Unless you want to auger a hole, Busch is out. The closest trout to St. Louis is Maramec Springs, a little farther to Montauk and a little farther yet to Bennett. If you want to try for some smallmouth, the Bourbeuse or Big River is the closest, but it'll be a slow bite. They're in there to catch though, for sure, and I bet if you found the right hole and played around with some little jigs you could pull a few out with the fly rod. If I was in your shoes, I'd probably head to a trout park, or go to Washington State Park at the Big River and float a stretch for smallies, or drive a little further to the Meramec where you could chase either species. There are campgrounds open, you just have to find them. I'll be checking Busch periodically, and if we get a stretch of warmer days before you go, bring this thread up again and I'll let you know if it's thawed...or just call Busch. Just a warning, though: I wouldn't call Busch a "destination" type of place. If you're just wanting to get your fix catching some fish without driving too far, Busch has that, but if you're looking for a scenic and quiet place to relax and soak in some peace, I wouldn't recommend it.

I would argue that we still have a few hundred people taking everything they catch from a river, more or less depending on which river we're talking about. The question is, though, what do we ask of the rest of the people who either respect laws or behave in a way that is ethically correct regardless of laws. We can waste our time bickering about when and why habitat degradation took place and the impact it had on fisheries; I do believe that we have seen improvements in the last several decades on most streams. How about we go back to the 1600s? What do you think the smallmouth populations looked like then? Habitat degradation, water quality, purely environmental influences, etc...they're all parts of a whole when it comes to smallmouth problems...I'm well aware of that. But let's keep that stuff to another thread. This one is about MDC REGULATIONS, and as far as I'm concerned that issue is mutually exclusive to all the other issues. It makes no sense to say, "well, this stream has poor water quality for such and such reasons, so why bother with tighter regulations?" That is backwards logic and is tantamount to throwing in the towel and giving up on a river simply because it's "imperfect." Why don't we just say, then, to give a specific example, "well, the spotted bass are consistently moving upstream into the Meramec and its tributaries, so we might as well just start dumping waste into it." Get what I'm saying? And to add onto that point in a way that is directly related to the White Paper criteria and elimination of certain streams for consideration based on poor scores on said criteria, what the hell are they doing with an SMA on Big River if unsuitable habitat eliminates a stream from consideration? That river is in terrible shape both in terms of habitat degradation and the spotted bass invasion. Big River scored a 2 for habitat suitability and a total rating of 18, lower than many streams eliminated from consideration, yet they chose to extend the SMA by 95 miles. A little incongruent? Seems so to me.

Yes, I absolutely do. You don't? You really think there were as many anglers fishing our streams pre WW2 as there are now? There weren't, except possibly (on the Meramec, for example) around the area of the Meramec Highlands recreation complex near Kirkwood, which is relatively close to St. Louis city. There weren't hordes of people frequenting the upper stretches back then...most could simply not afford the trip. I'll throw in your point that there was not as much habitat degradation back then and for the Meramec Basin specifically the spotted bass were not a problem. Now we have the trifecta and the fish need support. I'm baffled that I have to argue for game fish protection on this site.

I was thinking about taking my canoe and a sheet out to Busch to do some ice-sailing.

So the fact that you have only sunfish and largemouth in your streams means that historically phenomenal smallmouth streams in another part of the state should be scratched off your list for support and protection against an invasive, non-native species? Get real. You sure fight hard to accomplish nothing. What's your angle? You just like to disagree? Because you sure don't care to improve our fisheries, you've made that crystal clear.

Maybe one day Chief, but one project at a time okay? Like I said before, I tend to focus on MDC regulations because I feel I have the best chance at affecting some kind of change through them. I think the issues you raised with habitat, etc. are just as important, I just don't feel as confident I could make a difference there.

They have the resources, I'm just not sure they have the gumption.