drew03cmc

If anyone has empirical evidence that spotted bass did not migrate to the Meramec River, I want to see it. How long have records been kept of fish populations? I am sure there are none from hundreds of millions of years ago. Spotted bass in the north do not historically reach a large size. Dams are not natural, but can you fault a species for taking advantage of something? A similar example is the proliferation of large blue catfish below the dams on the Mississippi River. They may have been there before, but not in these concentrations. I am against invasion from other species as well in my streams, but that is part of evolution in my opinion. I could see where if it were something like redfish colonizing the Meramec River system or bull sharks, but we are talking about fish of the same genus here, not fish that are alien to the region or even the state. Management through regulation is a great theory, but what is regulation without enforcement? If nothing is enforced, then I fail to see how adding another regulation will help. I think a mandatory kill regulation on spotted bass would help out with what everyone is looking for, but the MDC will not do that for a game fish. My comments about the Taney and White Ribbon fisheries was in response to this from Gypsy: One species outcompeting, hybridizing and replacing another is not cohabitation. One species being replaced from its native range by another is not "equilibrium." Smallmouth and spotted bass apparently, obviously, can't cohabit in these systems- that's sort of the whole point. Forget that he said hybridizing, but one species being replaced by another is where I was going with it. Off base, maybe...partially correct, maybe.

So, how do you feel about the trout fishery in Taney, or in any of the White River streams where smallmouth were the historically dominant species? They have been pushed out of their native waters by stocked rainbow and brown trout that are not native to the region or continent even...

Effort, yes. Complete eradication is not an effort worthy of dumping the millions necessary into. If you want the fish eradicated, petition your MDC biologists to use rotenone. They are not going to leave the river without being KILLED, so you should try to deal with the spotted bass, or fish waters which have been sheltered from the influx of spotted bass. The river was a great smallmouth fishery, with numbers and size, but now, you catch more spotted bass than smallmouth, and with some management of the spots, they could attain trophy sizes along with the smallmouth. I would embrace the spots cohabitating with the smallmouth as well as they can. Keep your dozen a day, however, acknowledge that it will be awhile before the Meramec reaches equilibrium with the species.

Smallmouth are non-native in certain waters in the midwest, but are filling a niche in the fishery. I have never said the spotted bass were NATIVE. If I did, find the quote and post it. I have said they were naturally occurring, and have been moving farther north in the past century. The fact that they were native to the south flowing Ozark streams says that they are likely native to the major rivers that are fed by them, the White and Mississippi. If they were stocked in the Missouri or the Moreau, Lamine, etc, then the blame should be placed upon the MDC (or the stocking authority), not on man in general or on anything else. If they migrated up the Mississippi from the White basin or what have you, then the blame is on the lock and dam builders. It can't just be happenstance that they are moving north as the climate gradually warms up can it? Spotted bass are recognized as a game fish and are not lowly carp. I hate to see a perfectly good sunfish species treated like such dung by conservationists and "open-minded" fishermen. If you are fishing the same stretches of stream that have been "decimated" by spotted bass and expecting a different result, you are not helping yourself to the smallmouths that are abundant in the headwaters and creeks of your area. Try fishing different streams, stretches or even watersheds. I will keep saying it. You will eventually have to embrace the spotted bass being in your streams, and think of them as another black bass species to catch. They, like the common carp, are not going anywhere.

According to the USGS site on nonindigenous aquatic species, the redeye bass was stocked in the Spring below Mammoth Spring. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.asp?speciesID=395 Does anyone know if this is true?

Exactly. This is for the better Phil, thank you!

I did it...YAY! Chief, the blues are fine...and posting a photo is just like it used to be. Use the Photobucket IMG tabs...Example: Well, I thought it was anyway...won't work for me either.

Buzz, Firefox runs this board flawlessly, but I am a fan of the old boards. You freakin' multi-quoters need to educate a kid on how to do it...I have tried, and ended up with one quote from one post.

Wow, should I be offended? No...I shouldn't be. I am for preserving our natural fisheries, not artificially sustaining fisheries, or putting even more regulations into effect. Why can't MDC enforce some of these regulations that they have spent so much money creating? I am opposed to this crap that the experts have spewed about habitat degradation being the main opposition that the smallmouth has. I hope that your blind following of how the MDC can and will improve the smallmouth fishery and minimize the impact spotted bass are or aren't having on the smallmouth pleases you or at least makes you realize that they care about trout more. When someone mistakenly uses a term like endangered or threatened, that will strike a nerve with me as it is not even accurate in the least. Endangered is on the brink of extinction, and threatened is what the Gila Trout is. Has the state had to air lift specimens into a headwater creek to prolong the inevitable? Nope. That is my stance on that. Enjoy spotted bass as they are game fish too, but apparently they are regarded as well as the bighead carp in the eastern Ozarks. Spotted bass were not put there by man, they migrated to these streams using the means available to them, and they are flourishing. About gigging, obviously I am well versed in the Wildlife Code, and am aware of the difference of a smallmouth and a sucker, but you seem to paint me a redneck hillbilly with little respect for the laws. Thank God I will never have to look you in the eye...I might laugh at the prospect that you call yourself a conservationist. You cannot conserve an artificial species like trout, but you can make things the best you can for species that are native or naturally occurring in your watershed. Enjoy your spotted bass prejudice, and I will enjoy catching them along with smallmouth and largemouth.

Buzz, I have to say I kind of agree that a chapter of MSA in the southwest would be a small group, albeit, a devout group. However, I am not against keeping the streams as little known as possible to ensure that the bass species, not just smallmouth, continue to thrive...

Umm...threatened? Since Missouri officially acknowledges one strain of smallmouth in Missouri, and in the headwater creeks, they are abundant, I hesitate to call them anything but plentiful. If they recognized two, one would be threatened at best.

Matt, I do care about the western smallmouth streams in the Ozarks, and in my opinion, and I am sure that of others, these streams get the short end of the stick in Missouri. They are not the poster streams that you read about, but offer some darn fine smallmouth angling in their own right. About the protection of the western streams, the White Paper pretty much writes off the western streams in that there is a combination of black bass species in the streams, little enforcement, and the size is not on par with that of the eastern streams. I am sorry, the genetic makeup of those smallmouth make the fish in the western Ozarks unlikely to reach the magic 20" size that anglers judge the health of a fishery on in the east. The streams in the western Ozarks have a smaller following, but in my experience, offer an experience that trumps the eastern streams I have been on. I would like to see stretches of certain streams over here managed differently, as in an 18" length limit (meaning almost exclusive c&r) or a slot from 10-14. I almost forgot, there are no bluffs here to add to the scenery as these streams are all spring creeks that have not cut through the rock over the millenia.

Not here they don't. In Missouri, they are supposed to.

Al, simply put, my point is that there is not much that can be done to change it, so either fish other waters that have been sheltered from the onslaught of spotted bass or become more accepting of what mother nature has thrown you and enjoy another black bass species in your streams. If you can think of any way short of a fish kill on the rivers to rid them of spots, let the MDC know and see what they can do. Fishgypsy- There is little that can be done about invasive species (those not native to the continent in question) under most circumstances. The spotted bass may have used man made features to migrate to these streams, but they were not placed there by the hand of man. Asian carp, on the other hand, were. Brown trout were too. If a species finds acceptable habitat in its new home streams, they can, and often do, become prolific in these locations. A case in point, there are Asian Carp in the Kansas River. They were not historically there, but they are there and they are thriving, growing to trophy sizes. In fact, it has become embraced by a small group of fishermen here, and is enjoyed as a trophy fishery. I am not denying the negative impacts that spotted bass are having on fisheries, however, they have gotten there, gotten established, and, in the eyes of fishermen, taken over. The waterways are forever changed due to the influx of spots on the fisheries and we can either fight nature on this one or enjoy having another game fish species to catch. I, for one, am all for catching a black bass slam on any Ozark stream. Wayne SW/MO- You speak of having a population of smallmouth bass in Grand Lake due to floods on the southwest Missouri smallmouth creeks, and that is all fine and dandy, but not the way that works. There are few to no smallmouth in Grand Lake due to genetics. The Neosho Smallmouth is not a lake dwelling species, and as such, will move upstream out of the lake into the creeks and rivers where they are native and designed to live and thrive. If you doubt me, read this article about the ODW wanting to stock Tennessee smallmouth into Grand Lake and why they haven't done it yet. http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmas...ving_smallmouth

Is anything done west of the Current? Do you all take surveys of the streams for the size of fish found in certain stream stretches? I am wondering, what we would be getting for our money besides a couple subscriptions. What incentive is there for protection of the western Ozark streams that hold native smallmouth of a different genetic strain than the ones in the Meramec, Gasconade, etc? Do you fish any streams west of Springfield for smallmouth? I can admire the drive to improve Missouri smallmouth fishing. The amount of members is a secret? Honestly?

Nope, but it takes a lot of money to enforce the regulations. I have seen people on streams without licenses due to the fact they have never been asked for theirs before. I, have never seen an agent on any stream I was fishing outside of a trout park four years ago. All the regulations in the world do not mean squat to the law abiding outdoorsman. It is not the members of this forum or the weekly fishermen that you have to worry about. It is the Joe Schmoe who goes out meat hunting on a smallmouth stream and comes back with a dozen 9-11" fish. If they are never hassled by an agent, they have no aversion to breaking the law. For example, in Missouri, you have a rigorous motor vehicle inspection every year, including brakes, tires, windshield, catalytic converter, etc. You have to have a catalytic converter on your car to pass (unless the mechanic is your buddy, another story), but in Kansas, there is no yearly inspection. All they do (assuming the car is from another state) is check the VIN and odometer to match the title. If the car is from Kansas, you do not have to see the DMV, just go to the county treasurer's office and you are set. The point of this is that if you are legally required to run a catalytic converter (you are), but your state does not check for it, do you have an aversion to pulling it off to gain the extra power? Nope. It is like I mentioned above, but in a gearhead, nerd kind of way. Tom, great post bud.

It seems to me that everything that happens causing a decline in the number of smallmouth bass in the eastern Ozark streams is blamed on spotted bass. Spotted bass are outcompeting smallmouth, spotted bass are invading, spotted bass hybridize with smallmouth, etc. I, for one, am tired of reading about it. If someone has an idea on how to eradicate the "invaders" please do something about it. If not, accept the relatively new addition to the fishery, and get used to the fact that the headwaters of the streams, or above impassable barriers will be the best place for smallmouth in any numbers on these streams. Spotted bass were not placed in all of these drainages by man. In fact, I believe it to be a natural migration as the climate shifts, the spots are finding new waters that are suitable to their inhabitance. All of these streams are out of the spots historical range, however, the Mississippi and Missouri connect these drainages to the native drainages of the spotted bass and is a migration out of the question? They are not going anywhere, and be thankful you have bass to catch, regardless of what species they are. In Kansas here, my local creeks and rivers have green sunfish and the occasional largemouth.

Most streams could be improved, however, MDC is only interested in improving those that are already a draw. The smaller or lesser known streams will receive the same amount of MDC support they have always received. I want to see streams improved, however, I am a realist, seeing that MDC does not have the resources to do what we all want to see.

They have spent more time identifying the "best" black bass streams on the eastern half of the Ozarks than in the Ozarks as a whole. Unfortunately, there are many things that have changed on these streams to hinder trophy production. Depending upon who you listen to; spotted bass have invaded, habitat has degraded and MDC has dropped the ball. To grow a trophy fishery of any species, they have to have ideal conditions and apparently, there is something missing.

This may or may not be out of line here, but since Al is the expert on this matter, why don't you contact him directly to set up interviews regarding his views on the state of smallmouth bass fishing in the Ozarks (Meramec and Gasconade basins specifically) rather than taking quotes from a web forum and possibly using them out of context. MDC will not radically change anything pertaining to smallmouth bass in the near future without empirical evidence that action on their part will impact the fish populations of larger fish in a positive manner. Al made a comment about the top end size of smallmouth bass in Missouri as opposed to Virginia, Maine, Minnesota and Wisconsin. Missouri, historically, does not produce large numbers of smallmouth of those sizes. You can catch the rare 20" fish from a Missouri stream, but do not expect trophy sized smallmouth from our Ozark streams. In the western Ozarks, you might only broach 20" once or twice in a great, long while, but that is due in large part to the genetics of the fish.

Wrench, you have forgotten many game fish species, but, yes, in a creek, a big green sunfish is fun. In fact, Kansas has native black bass of all three predominant species, but hey...green sunfish are it

I am looking to get down there in January, so Chief, keep me in the loop if you don't mind a tagalong.

^^ What he said.

I will give it a try once or twice, however, I am partial to catching native fish in their waters. Wayne, the trout in Taneycomo are tended to by MDC. They are pet fish that happen to be pursued by anglers.

Me, no. I find it tough to respect a fish that was grown in a fish tank. That is like throwing a party when you drop your hook in your aquarium at home and catch a guppy.