Other Ozark Stream Or Should I Say Smallie/spot Debate

[eric1978]

Hey guys, I'm just a member putting in my two cents. Mostly I want to ask questions about this subject. If I'm not wrong, seems like most of the people who have a problem with the spotted bass populations overtaking their creeks, streams, or rivers reside in the eastern part of Missouri. Meaning the Meramec, Bourbeuse, Big (maybe?), or any other river or creek that eventually feeds into the Mississippi. Will the Gasconade or any other major rivers like the Big Piney ever have this problem? Currently, does the Huzzah or (that stream that starts with a "C") have that problem now?

Doe's being in close proximety to St. Louis have any effect on those streams? Mainly the Meramec, Bourbeuse, or Big? Surely downstream the effects are seen, but does it effect anything upstream?

I do not see any one complaining about spots in the LOZ forum. Are they not there? I fish the Little Niangua River and that's about all we catch there. A few brownies yes, but, I enjoy my experience there. Where did those spots come from?

Lot's of spots in SW Missourri too, including Table Rock. Where did those spots in the Rock come from? Not from the Mississippi.

Spot's have won tourneys for the BASSMASTER champions. Are they going away?

No.

And... my favorite fish... a SMALLMOUTH!

Spots are native to the southern flowing river systems in the Ozarks. They are not native to the Meramec. I don't know much about the Gasconade, but I would guess they are not native there, and either are a problem now or will be in the near future. In rivers where the spots are native, the smallmouth and largemouth have had millenia to adapt and find a balance with the spots, and they have reached an equilibrium, and therefore are not a problem. The spots were introduced into the Meramec system in the last few decades and they BOOMED and now it's spot overload in the lower sections of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse. It's been said by those who know on this forum that they believe every spot in a Meramec stream means one less smallie.

The Big and Bourbeuse are not strongly spring-fed like the Meramec, so the slower, warmer water makes the habitat perfect for spots, and they are taking over. The Meramec has many springs that keep the water cooler and the current faster, which the spots can tolerate, but prefer the slower, warmer waters of the lower Meramec. The Huzzah and Courtois are similar to the upper Meramec in temp and current and also seem to be able to keep out the majority of the spots....for now anyway.

Spots in the White River and its reservoirs are native and not a problem.

I don't believe spots are native in the LOZ, but since they seem to coexist okay with largemouth, and there are no smallmouth in LOZ, I guess there's not a problem. Don't really have all the facts on the last two assumptions. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

[eric1978]

Al's posts make lots of sense to me, and I agree that invasive species should be dealt with aggressively to a certain extent. However, you might want to be careful with this approach. Not sure about Missouri, but in Arkansas it's a game and fish violation to "waste the edible portion of game fish" if I'm not mistaken. I've done the same thing on private ponds for management purposes at the behest of the property owners; just don't want anyone to get in trouble.

You were absolutely correct hoglaw...MDC says: "It is also illegal...to intentionally leave or abandon any commonly edible portion of any fish."

Good call and thanks for taking the time to wise me up. It's nice having a pro-bono attorney workin' for us here, ain't it?

Maybe I'll just stuff a piece of Alka-Seltzer down a spot's throat before I release him. See if there's any precedence for that will ya?

Just messin'. Thanks for the advice, though.

[Al Agnew]

Yep, still picking at the degraded habitat scab, Chief...

When I was talking about degraded habitat with otters, I was speaking entirely of small streams. Contrary to what some anglers have complained about, I have seen no real impact of otter predation on the larger streams. But on small creeks, the filling in of pools and recreational bulldozing have made the fish more susceptible to otters, especially in the winter.

As for the Gasconade...I'm not familiar with the Gasconade below Jerome...having only fished it a few times many years ago. But I do know that spotted bass are very common in the lower river. The lower Gasconade, like the lower Meramec, was once a premier fishery for big smallmouth. I don't think it is anymore. Maybe somebody who fishes the river below Jerome can chime in here...I'm intending to fish the lower Gasconade to find out for myself.

For whatever reason, I've found spotted bass to be pretty rare in the Gasconade above Jerome, as well as the Big Piney. Yes, you'll catch one occasionally, but in the trips I've made to the Gasconade between Hazelgreen and Jerome and in the Big Piney below Fort Leonard Wood in the last few years, I don't remember catching hardly any spots. I can't tell you why, since it would seem there is not much difference in habitat between the Gasconade and Meramec. I hope things stay that way.

The trouble with spotted bass in many waters, even those in which they are native, is that they are sexually mature long before they reach the 12 inch length limit, and simply don't grow very big very fast. So a 12 inch limit, and especially a 15 inch limit like some of the reservoirs have, favors spotted bass.

[cwc87]

Al, overall spot numbers have decreased from about 5- 10 years ago above sand ford on the meramec. The gasconade numbers are increasing especially below hwy 50 bridge(mt sterling). Seems like the spot length limit of none is definitely working as a bounty. The hole deal is that it takes forever for a spotted bass to grow long and alot of fishermen are mistakenly eating largemouth that they think are spotted bass. I know I do my fair share of depleting the spotted bass population in the Meramec.

[creek wader]

I recently tried to move this discussion to "General Bass Fishing Discussions"/ "Kentucky Spotted Bass". The original message of this post, here, didn't have anything to do with spots. But, like the idiot that I am. I opened another can of worms, by posting a pic of a spot. I guess it really doesn't matter where you discuss this topic. Everyone has an opinion on it and will find a place to express it. Maybe some day we'll get this spot "controversy" ironed out. ...lol .... wader

[FishinCricket]

I recently tried to move this discussion to "General Bass Fishing Discussions"/ "Kentucky Spotted Bass". The original message of this post, here, didn't have anything to do with spots. But, like the idiot that I am. I opened another can of worms, by posting a pic of a spot. I guess it really doesn't matter where you discuss this topic. Everyone has an opinion on it and will find a place to express it. Maybe some day we'll get this spot "controversy" ironed out. ...lol .... wader

I saw what you did there, and I applaud your efforts to keep the conversations seperate and on a modicum of the topic. If I might make a suggestion?

When you create that seperate thread for a tangent discussion, come back to the original thread and post a link to the tangent discussion, something like:

This sounds like a tangent to the original topic, I have taken the liberty of created a thread for that topic here:

http://ozarkanglers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19356

[Chief Grey Bear]

Yep, still picking at the degraded habitat scab, Chief...

When I was talking about degraded habitat with otters, I was speaking entirely of small streams. Contrary to what some anglers have complained about, I have seen no real impact of otter predation on the larger streams. But on small creeks, the filling in of pools and recreational bulldozing have made the fish more susceptible to otters, especially in the winter.

I think you misunderstood the meat of my question. I am wondering if the following would also be true for Kentucky bass?

Whenever you introduce (or re-introduce) a creature to an ecosystem where it's niche was not being filled before, it will often thrive to the point of overpopulation until the ecosystem "adjusts" to it. In the case of otters, I think it has taken their prey species, especially game fish, a while to adjust to their presence. I suspect that eventually otters and their prey will reach equilibrium.

[KCRIVERRAT]

Spots are native to the southern flowing river systems in the Ozarks. They are not native to the Meramec. I don't know much about the Gasconade, but I would guess they are not native there, and either are a problem now or will be in the near future. In rivers where the spots are native, the smallmouth and largemouth have had millenia to adapt and find a balance with the spots, and they have reached an equilibrium, and therefore are not a problem. The spots were introduced into the Meramec system in the last few decades and they BOOMED and now it's spot overload in the lower sections of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse. It's been said by those who know on this forum that they believe every spot in a Meramec stream means one less smallie.

The Big and Bourbeuse are not strongly spring-fed like the Meramec, so the slower, warmer water makes the habitat perfect for spots, and they are taking over. The Meramec has many springs that keep the water cooler and the current faster, which the spots can tolerate, but prefer the slower, warmer waters of the lower Meramec. The Huzzah and Courtois are similar to the upper Meramec in temp and current and also seem to be able to keep out the majority of the spots....for now anyway.

Spots in the White River and its reservoirs are native and not a problem.

I don't believe spots are native in the LOZ, but since they seem to coexist okay with largemouth, and there are no smallmouth in LOZ, I guess there's not a problem. Don't really have all the facts on the last two assumptions. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Eric... just my opinion bud. I'm thinking kentuckies are just trying to become "native" to your area just recently (figurative term), after many years of finding their way upstream on the Mississippi. See Al's post about how he believes they've made their way to your neck of the woods. I don't know, but are kentuckies really "native" to SW Missouri? Maybe they made their way up the White River system years ago before the dams came along. Actually though, why would they pick or decide to even try the White River system? In my opinion they did. Even though the waters they chose to make their way up were much more clear and there was much more current. Not condusive to spot habitat. But, the dams came along, which allowed them to thrive down there. And yes, seems everything is fine and dandy as far as species living in co-existence.

I don't believe it's the beginning of the end for smallmouth for you guys. The spots finally made their way to perfect habitat for them. The rivers and creeks over there are great for them.

I think it's the beginning of what's happened everywhere else. And there are lots of places in our beautiful state that will always hold smallmouth only thank goodness.

In the end, I say spots become native, not invasive. We humans didn't introduce them.

KC

There actually are smallmouth in the feeder streams feeding the LOZ. Just like your situation, you need to go way upstream to catch'em.

Look, the kentuckies could've tried to make it up the white river system long before they tried to make it further upstream and into the Meramec area. My guess is they made it. Then... the dams came along.

[Al Agnew]

Chief, I see what you're saying in relating spotted bass to otters. But I think there are a couple of differences. First, otters are a predator, preying on bass among other things. The relationship between otters and smallmouth, for instance, is different from the relationship between spotted bass and smallmouth. Otters, like any predator, cannot eat their whole prey base, or they starve. By reaching equilibrium with their prey base, otter numbers and the numbers of the prey are controlled, with optimum populations of both existing. Spotted bass, on the other hand, are a competitor, not a predator, of smallmouth. If they "win" the competition, they simply take over the water and the smallmouth disappear.

Second, otters WERE native to the Ozarks.

Having said all that, I agree that eventually an equilibrium will be reached. I suspect that over the lower halves of these streams, it mostly already has. Problem is, the equilibrium relegates the smallmouth to the margins. In lower Big River, smallmouths are now ONLY found in two or three small areas of fast water in 30 or more miles of river. The population ratio is at least 95% spotted bass, 5% smallmouths (excluding largemouth, of course). My observations in the middle Meramec, though not nearly as extensive as cwc's, points the same...spotted bass have become a little scarcer in the river above Sand Ford (Meramec Caverns) and in my even more limited observations, they seemed to have reached an equilibrium with smallies below Sand Ford...smallmouth are still there in significant numbers, though nothing like what they were before spotted bass.

Maybe we're tilting at windmills here. Maybe there's really nothing we can do to alter the situation, and we just have to accept that we've lost most of Big River and Bourbeuse as premier smallmouth streams. Like I said before, we won't know until the situation with the removal of length limits and limit of 12 spots plays out. Personally, I don't think it will...but I think that complete protection of smallmouth coupled with no limit at all on spotted bass might enable the smallies to at least come back some on these streams.

About the idea that somehow this is "natural", and that spotted bass may have moved into the southern Ozark and SW MO streams the same way, only earlier...I guess it depends upon what you think is "natural". We know what the original ranges--the ranges the different species had--were when scientists began defining the species. For smallmouth and spotted bass, we know where they lived before stocking began. We assume that they had the same ranges since the climate settled down after the last ice age. The melting and warming periods after ice ages are believed to be the times when freshwater aquatic species expand their ranges. At that time, the connections between watersheds are at their maximums, and the water temps are stabilizing to where the species can settle into habitat that suits them. Once the overall melting period was over and the river systems got into their present forms, the fish were pretty much stuck with where they lived. It's all a matter of connections and barriers. Obviously, a highland that separates two watersheds is an impassable barrier--the highland that separates the north-flowing streams in MO from the south-flowing streams is a good example. A less obvious barrier, but probably very significant as well, is a long stretch of water that is totally unsuitable habitat, such as what the Missouri River and the Mississippi between the Missouri and the Ohio was before the dams were built on the upper Missouri and started catching and holding a tremendous amount of silt that once came down that river. The third barrier we might consider is simply latitude and climate. Spotted bass seem to have never been able to take the colder winters north of a line going across southern Ohio, Indiana, and central Illinois, which would have put the northern Ozarks close to the northern edge of their possible range, but well within it climate-wise.

Now...connections. The Ohio River, draining largely eastern and midwestern forestland and grassland before European settlement, was historically a fairly clear river that often flowed as much water as the combined Missouri and Mississippi above it. So it would have diluted the sediment in the Mississippi enough for the river between the Ohio and the mouth of the White River to be a connection from the Ohio Valley to the White River (and a connection for smallmouth, for that matter, although I suspect that the smallmouth used it earlier when it was still flowing colder meltwater from the northern glacial ice). Apparently, spotted bass were also able to use the Arkansas River connection to the Mississippi to move up it and eventually into the Neosho and Grand river systems, and thus the streams of SW MO. We know that smallies used that connection a LONG time ago, long enough to have evolved into a separate subspecies, the Neosho smallmouth. So...the streams of the southern Ozarks had the connections, and apparently the Missouri and the Mississippi above the Ohio was the barrier that kept spotted bass out of any stream whose waters eventually reached the Missouri or the Mississippi between St. Louis and Cairo.

So how did the smallies get into those streams if spotted bass couldn't? Well, smallmouth tolerate colder water. They are native to the upper Mississippi and tributaries above the mouth of the Missouri. They probably utilized the Mississippi when it was still flowing many times its present size during the glacial melting period, when the water and climate was too cold for spotted bass to move out of their stronghold in the southeastern states. Records of smallmouth before the widespread stocking of Ozark waters in the late 1800s and early 1900s are scarce for the northern Ozark streams, and it's just possible that they WEREN'T native to the rivers flowing into the Missouri--the Gasconade and Osage river systems. It's believed that northern rock bass were not native to these streams, by the way, but were stocked in them early on. But it's also possible that glacial meltwater kept the Missouri sediment diluted enough for smallmouth to utilize it to expand their ranges during the melting period.

At any rate, we know that spotted bass were native to the southern Ozarks and not to the northern Ozarks before humans started messing around with the ecology of the the Missouri and Mississippi and stocking them in some places. The only natural thing about their spread into the northern Ozarks was their own natural propensity to roam--we made it possible for them to follow that propensity into the northern Ozarks.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Right on Al. I have believed that for as long as I have been studying bass.

I still don't think we are making connection on the "replace otter with Kentucky bass"

When I posted that, we just happen to be talking bass. But lets say we were speaking possums and I wanted to insert armadillo. That is what I was meaning by using that analogy.

But like I said in another post and you said here, since record keeping didn't start until the early 1800's, we can't really say with much positivity what was native and what wasn't. We only know that they have been here since we showed up.