Kentucky Spotted Bass

[eric1978]

Now don't bite my head off.

I have read everything posted on this subject over the last few years and I know it won't be resolved on a forum. I also know that most of us don't want any sort of damming done on our streams, but maybe a few mill type dams placed in very well thought out locations could slow the progress of the spots, maybe even give the regulations a better chance to work. Just a thought. I'd like to hear all of the pros and cons for this idea, and not just the inconvenience of floaters.

Buzz

If it was certain that that would work, and wouldn't affect the river in any other way, I'm not sure I'd be against it. I'm not the type of floater that really freaks out when I have to portage, it's all part of the deal. That said, I don't really think it would work. There are a bunch of low-water bridges for example on the Bourbeuse, which may have slowed the encroachment, but they still make it up somehow, through floods or whatever. Even a bird of prey could pick one up from farther down stream and accidentally drop it upstream...probably not likely, but possible I suppose.

I think the best option at this point is to make any stream with invasive spots a Smallmouth Management Area, with even stricter regs than they have on current SMAs. Change the size limit from 15 to 18, or making them illegal to take altogether, at least for several years, would be even more ideal. Also, remove all limits, size and quantity, on spots. The MO Smallmouth Alliance is having a Spotted Bass Roundup and fish fry this weekend on the Bourbeuse, and I think things like that will also help some.

[ozark trout fisher]

Now don't bite my head off.

I have read everything posted on this subject over the last few years and I know it won't be resolved on a forum. I also know that most of us don't want any sort of damming done on our streams, but maybe a few mill type dams placed in very well thought out locations could slow the progress of the spots, maybe even give the regulations a better chance to work. Just a thought. I'd like to hear all of the pros and cons for this idea, and not just the inconvenience of floaters.

Buzz

That is actually a pretty good idea.... The only problem is I'm afraid the spots have already infiltrated the Meramec basin to the degree they ever will. Somehow, they always seem to make it past the milldams currently in place on the Bourbeuse and big, I don't know how, but they do.... Unless I'm incorrect, spots are becoming common all the way up to the headwaters of the Bourbeuse and Big Rivers. In the Meramec, they have gone as far upstream as the cold water of Meramec spring (and other smaller springs) will let them. I'm afraid the only viable solution now is to kill the spots through harvest, and electro-shocking. I know that's unpopular with the folks who think a bass a bass, but I want the natives back. To make that happen, we have to decrease, or elimintate the spotted bass in the system.

[Flysmallie]

I'm afraid the only viable solution now is to kill the spots through harvest, and electro-shocking. I know that's unpopular with the folks who think a bass a bass, but I want the natives back. To make that happen, we have to decrease, or elimintate the spotted bass in the system.

I've kept out of this conversation until now. I understand the frustration that is caused by the spots moving in. I see the same problems in the rivers around this area that I choose to call my home waters. Now in these waters spots have "always" been there and always will be. The problem that these rivers have is that they are all connected to Table Rock lake. You are never going to be able to stop them. It does seem like more have moved up the river the past couple of years due to the spring high waters but smallmouth fishing remains good in the areas that I fish.

So I have learned to live with and love them. My 10 year old daughter is especially fond of them. She is a spot catching maniac.

Now that I have said all of that for apparently no reason , my question is that if you kill the spots in the river through harvest or any other way, what keeps them from coming back? You have already said that a small dam would not stop them from moving up, so how does killing all the spots in the river keep more from moving up? I,m not trying to argue with you about this. We know that this is the way to remove them from the stream, but the most important part is how do we keep them from returning.

I really wish MDC would just change the regulations on Smallmouth. Make it 18 or 20 inches on all streams and that in effect would make every stream catch & release for smallmouth. What does it take to get this done. I don't want to mess with making some stream Smallmouth Management Areas, I want to make all stream Smallmouth Management Areas.

Currently the only SMA's that have a length limit of 18" are the Gasconade from Jerome to Riddle Bridge and the Jacks Form from Buck Hollow to Alley Spring. Big Buffalo Creek and it's tributaries are listed as Smallmouth Catch & Release only. All other SMA's are listed at 15" with a daily limit of 1 smallmouth. That's no different than the lakes where we know a smallmouth can and will grow faster. They either need to set the length limit to 18" or I would prefer 20", or make them all catch and release only.

[creek wader]

My final thought on the spot/smallie controversy. ... Most of us responding to this topic are stream smallie enthusiasts. Bottom line. ... We are out to catch smallies not spots. An occasional spot here and there is ok but, we want more (a lot more) smallies to spots. Both spots and smallies spawn at the same time, under the same conditions. So they mix. That's just the natural coarse of nature. Most smallie fans are raciest, we don't want spots in our neighborhood and we don't want them to mix species. ... Also, the spots average size runs small. .... In the Osage river basin the spot numbers are increasing and the ratio of spots to smallies is changing in the favor of the spots. On one stream that I fish, I haven't caught a true smallie, yet. But, I've caught crosses. So, I know that there is a at least a small population of smallies. On the other hand, I catch multitudes of spots. I would keep and eat them but, most are under legal length. (The regs. need to be changed on those streams, also.) .. I don't hate spots, I don't hate any fish. I just want to catch smallies. Just my take on it. ... ... wader

[eric1978]

...my question is that if you kill the spots in the river through harvest or any other way, what keeps them from coming back? You have already said that a small dam would not stop them from moving up, so how does killing all the spots in the river keep more from moving up? I,m not trying to argue with you about this. We know that this is the way to remove them from the stream, but the most important part is how do we keep them from returning.

I really wish MDC would just change the regulations on Smallmouth. Make it 18 or 20 inches on all streams and that in effect would make every stream catch & release for smallmouth. What does it take to get this done. I don't want to mess with making some stream Smallmouth Management Areas, I want to make all stream Smallmouth Management Areas.

Unless MDC biologists get some kind of huge grant to develop a drug that alters the genes of spots to make them incapable of reproduction, I think they're here for good. That would have to be a heck of a good drug, too, because their DNA is so similar to that of smallies they can cross breed and contaminate the smallie gene pool. How you would isolate that gene in just spotted bass, I have no idea. And come to think of it, that wouldn't work anyway because the particular DNA change that makes them sterile would also make them incapable of spreading that gene (duh). Biologists messing with DNA strains is totally unrealistic anyway; that simply won't happen. So like I said, I think they're here for good.

Since it's too late for prevention, electro-shocking would be the most direct and ambitious way to get rid of them. That too will never happen, because even if MDC had the desire to pursue such an aggressive removal program, they would never get the funding. They simply don't have the money for a project of that size. I also think it would be pretty stressful for the other species of fish to be juiced to near-death on a regular basis.

So Flysmallie, I think your ideas for SMAs are really the only practical and possible solution. On streams where spots are native, I think the 18 inch, 1 smallie limit, or some kind of slot limit would suffice, depending on the populations of each particular stream. On streams where spots are invasive and are having a negative impact, I think a catch and release only regulation would be best, at least until the ecological need for "thinning the herd" arises, if it ever did. Limits on spots on these streams should be removed altogether, and the law stating that the "edible portion" of a fish cannot be wasted should be changed for spots only, so that those of us who can muster the will can just kill 'em and leave 'em. (I hate doing this, but I was for a while until I found out it was illegal).

For those of us who really care, we know some variation of the above is what is needed to improve the quality of our smallmouth fisheries. That's great. But the problem is, what can we do about it? I've personally emailed the MDC about this issue, but I would say that amounted to less than the proverbial drop in the bucket. The MO Smallmouth Alliance does everything they can to raise awareness and push for stricter regulations, but their power is limited. They are a tiny constituency in the grander scope of the legislative mechanism, and their voice is but a whisper in terms of the general melee of state politics. But the squeeky wheel gets the grease, so the MSA needs both more members (I am guilty of not joining yet because I've never really been an "organization" kind of guy, but I will be joining soon), and MONEY. They need MONEY. Nothing speaks louder than the holy dollar, and I think if they could raise enough cash to hire a lobbyist, we'd be much closer to realizing some kind of actual progress. But most people simply don't have the extra bread laying around to just be forking it over, including myself. If I had a few hundred bucks to blow I'd probably wind up with a new pair of waders or a new fancy reel, so I could go fish in some great smallmouth waters and catch a bunch of spots.

So, hypothesis: The MO Smallmouth Alliance is our best resource for potential improvement of our beloved hobby. We should all join and save up our loose change to contribute to their efforts.

For those of you who made it through this post, thank you and I'm sorry.

[ozark trout fisher]

Unless MDC biologists get some kind of huge grant to develop a drug that alters the genes of spots to make them incapable of reproduction, I think they're here for good. That would have to be a heck of a good drug, too, because their DNA is so similar to that of smallies they can cross breed and contaminate the smallie gene pool. How you would isolate that gene in just spotted bass, I have no idea. And come to think of it, that wouldn't work anyway because the particular DNA change that makes them sterile would also make them incapable of spreading that gene (duh). Biologists messing with DNA strains is totally unrealistic anyway; that simply won't happen. So like I said, I think they're here for good.

Since it's too late for prevention, electro-shocking would be the most direct and ambitious way to get rid of them. That too will never happen, because even if MDC had the desire to pursue such an aggressive removal program, they would never get the funding. They simply don't have the money for a project of that size. I also think it would be pretty stressful for the other species of fish to be juiced to near-death on a regular basis.

So Flysmallie, I think your ideas for SMAs are really the only practical and possible solution. On streams where spots are native, I think the 18 inch, 1 smallie limit, or some kind of slot limit would suffice, depending on the populations of each particular stream. On streams where spots are invasive and are having a negative impact, I think a catch and release only regulation would be best, at least until the ecological need for "thinning the herd" arises, if it ever did. Limits on spots on these streams should be removed altogether, and the law stating that the "edible portion" of a fish cannot be wasted should be changed for spots only, so that those of us who can muster the will can just kill 'em and leave 'em. (I hate doing this, but I was for a while until I found out it was illegal).

For those of us who really care, we know some variation of the above is what is needed to improve the quality of our smallmouth fisheries. That's great. But the problem is, what can we do about it? I've personally emailed the MDC about this issue, but I would say that amounted to less than the proverbial drop in the bucket. The MO Smallmouth Alliance does everything they can to raise awareness and push for stricter regulations, but their power is limited. They are a tiny constituency in the grander scope of the legislative mechanism, and their voice is but a whisper in terms of the general melee of state politics. But the squeeky wheel gets the grease, so the MSA needs both more members (I am guilty of not joining yet because I've never really been an "organization" kind of guy, but I will be joining soon), and MONEY. They need MONEY. Nothing speaks louder than the holy dollar, and I think if they could raise enough cash to hire a lobbyist, we'd be much closer to realizing some kind of actual progress. But most people simply don't have the extra bread laying around to just be forking it over, including myself. If I had a few hundred bucks to blow I'd probably wind up with a new pair of waders or a new fancy reel, so I could go fish in some great smallmouth waters and catch a bunch of spots.

So, hypothesis: The MO Smallmouth Alliance is our best resource for potential improvement of our beloved hobby. We should all join and save up our loose change to contribute to their efforts.

For those of you who made it through this post, thank you and I'm sorry.

The MDC already electro-shocks the rivers. All they would need to do would be to not release the spots that they shock... Doubt if that would cost much extra.

But in general, I agree. Spots are probably here to stay. Still, I know I'm going to do my part to manage the population, of them, which means I'm not releasing any I catch in the Meramec basin. Also, I think there need to be regs that eliminate or greatly reduce the harvest of smallies.

[eric1978]

The MDC already electro-shocks the rivers. All they would need to do would be to not release the spots that they shock... Doubt if that would cost much extra.

Yes, they shock certain areas of the stream occassionally to collect data, but they don't shock the entire river. It would take a VERY long time to shock 100 or so miles of river and collect all the spots.

[ozark trout fisher]

Yes, they shock certain areas of the stream occassionally to collect data, but they don't shock the entire river. It would take a VERY long time to shock 100 or so miles of river and collect all the spots.

I suppose you're right. Maybe they should just pick one section of ten mile or so, and just focus on that... At least maybe we'd have one stretch of the Bourbeuse or lower Meramec for those who want to catch smallies. Until then, we need to get a special management area in place.