One More Poll On Smallmouth Management Areas

[Chief Grey Bear]

I support that 100%, and if I knew there was some way I could contribute to realizing improvement in these kinds of areas, I would be more than willing to participate.

I think now, now follow me here, I am not poking fun at you or the MSA, would great time to join them and gather all the information you can obtain about buffer zones. Study it. Know it. Start knocking on doors. Organize small meetings for landownes to attend and present all of your data. I know you have the passion, I hope you have the will. And if you were be serious, I would do some research and make some contacts for info. Now don't tell me you don't have the time, I see at what times and how many times you post here a day.

CGB, what's your criteria for overpopulation? What conditions do you see that leads you to believe that the fish are short on habitat and food? What about their overall condition?

This is about the umpteenth time I have started to post to this. What ever write in response will be, I guess unbelieveable. So I will say this, if you like, you come on over this summer and I will show it to you. Like me, you are from Missouri, so I will show you.

[eric1978]

I think now, now follow me here, I am not poking fun at you or the MSA, would great time to join them and gather all the information you can obtain about buffer zones. Study it. Know it. Start knocking on doors. Organize small meetings for landownes to attend and present all of your data. I know you have the passion, I hope you have the will. And if you were be serious, I would do some research and make some contacts for info. Now don't tell me you don't have the time, I see at what times and how many times you post here a day.

Maybe one day Chief, but one project at a time okay? Like I said before, I tend to focus on MDC regulations because I feel I have the best chance at affecting some kind of change through them. I think the issues you raised with habitat, etc. are just as important, I just don't feel as confident I could make a difference there.

[drew03cmc]

It seems to me that everything that happens causing a decline in the number of smallmouth bass in the eastern Ozark streams is blamed on spotted bass. Spotted bass are outcompeting smallmouth, spotted bass are invading, spotted bass hybridize with smallmouth, etc. I, for one, am tired of reading about it. If someone has an idea on how to eradicate the "invaders" please do something about it. If not, accept the relatively new addition to the fishery, and get used to the fact that the headwaters of the streams, or above impassable barriers will be the best place for smallmouth in any numbers on these streams. Spotted bass were not placed in all of these drainages by man. In fact, I believe it to be a natural migration as the climate shifts, the spots are finding new waters that are suitable to their inhabitance. All of these streams are out of the spots historical range, however, the Mississippi and Missouri connect these drainages to the native drainages of the spotted bass and is a migration out of the question? They are not going anywhere, and be thankful you have bass to catch, regardless of what species they are. In Kansas here, my local creeks and rivers have green sunfish and the occasional largemouth.

[eric1978]

It seems to me that everything that happens causing a decline in the number of smallmouth bass in the eastern Ozark streams is blamed on spotted bass. Spotted bass are outcompeting smallmouth, spotted bass are invading, spotted bass hybridize with smallmouth, etc. I, for one, am tired of reading about it. If someone has an idea on how to eradicate the "invaders" please do something about it. If not, accept the relatively new addition to the fishery, and get used to the fact that the headwaters of the streams, or above impassable barriers will be the best place for smallmouth in any numbers on these streams. Spotted bass were not placed in all of these drainages by man. In fact, I believe it to be a natural migration as the climate shifts, the spots are finding new waters that are suitable to their inhabitance. All of these streams are out of the spots historical range, however, the Mississippi and Missouri connect these drainages to the native drainages of the spotted bass and is a migration out of the question? They are not going anywhere, and be thankful you have bass to catch, regardless of what species they are. In Kansas here, my local creeks and rivers have green sunfish and the occasional largemouth.

So the fact that you have only sunfish and largemouth in your streams means that historically phenomenal smallmouth streams in another part of the state should be scratched off your list for support and protection against an invasive, non-native species? Get real.

You sure fight hard to accomplish nothing. What's your angle? You just like to disagree? Because you sure don't care to improve our fisheries, you've made that crystal clear.

[fishgypsy]

It seems to me that everything that happens causing a decline in the number of smallmouth bass in the eastern Ozark streams is blamed on spotted bass. Spotted bass are outcompeting smallmouth, spotted bass are invading, spotted bass hybridize with smallmouth, etc. I, for one, am tired of reading about it. If someone has an idea on how to eradicate the "invaders" please do something about it. If not, accept the relatively new addition to the fishery, and get used to the fact that the headwaters of the streams, or above impassable barriers will be the best place for smallmouth in any numbers on these streams. Spotted bass were not placed in all of these drainages by man. In fact, I believe it to be a natural migration as the climate shifts, the spots are finding new waters that are suitable to their inhabitance. All of these streams are out of the spots historical range, however, the Mississippi and Missouri connect these drainages to the native drainages of the spotted bass and is a migration out of the question? They are not going anywhere, and be thankful you have bass to catch, regardless of what species they are. In Kansas here, my local creeks and rivers have green sunfish and the occasional largemouth.

The presence of spotted bass in many streams where they were historically absent is artificial. Dams in the Missouri and Mississippi rivers act as settling basins, and the water coming out of those rivers is far clearer than historically. sight-based fish, such as spotted bass, can then use the mainstem river to colonize streams where they weren't historically present. In other instances they were stocked in public and private impoundments in the watershed, and escaped during high water events. Peope may not have directly planted the fish in the stream, but people were involved in getting the spotted bass to the places where they're currently a problem.

And the solution seems simple enough to me- overfish them. I mean, we can do it with tuna, billfish, cod, orange roughy, redfish, smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, walleye, sturgeons, catfishes, and most any other aquatic organism we find delicious, how come we can't try that approach with spotted bass?

Now, there's mountains of evidence that indicates non-native fishes have significant negative impacts on native fisheries, from planting rainbow trout in cutthroat (and brook trout) streams to bait-bucket introductions of minnows, crayfish, and other species in Maine, Arizona, Wisconsin, and other places. You may be tired of hearing about it, but it's not an imaginary problem. And I suppose I just can't follow your logic- "the situation is screwed up, better just sit back and be happy about whatever outcome arises." Should we do this with asian carp invasions? zebra mussels? rusty crayfish, and all the rest?

If the headwaters or above barriers are "the best place," for smallmouth on these streams, how come, prior to the invasion by non-native species, they were apparently doing fine throughout most of the river systems?

You seem to have this all figured out though. Please, defend your position.

[Wayne SW/MO]

This is about the umpteenth time I have started to post to this. What ever write in response will be, I guess unbelieveable. So I will say this, if you like, you come on over this summer and I will show it to you. Like me, you are from Missouri, so I will show you.

CGB what ever your criteria for assuming population is, it has nothing to do with unbelievable. I don't question what you belive, I question that under my definition and maybe others that there are streams with an overpopulation of smallies in this state. Most of the streams in your section have been flushed big time recently and I suspect if there was an overpopulation it's in Grand lake now.

I've fish smallie rivers in the west where 100 a day wasn't uncommon, I'm not talking quality here but quantity, and yet they would not be considered overpopulated because they were healthy fish. Once many of them were flushed down river and the competition dropped, the larger fish became easier to catch, but they never left and they weren't absent because of overpopulation. I don't see how a free flowing stream can become overpopulated, especially considering the fact that smallies will move.

You don't know whether I've already fished the streams you're talking about, so that is why I ask, What do you see that leads you to believe there are too many smallies in some streams?

[Deer Slayer]

I hear you Deer Slayer, and I don't think anyone wants to stop you from a tasty meal every now and then. I enjoy fish very much, too.

But I think you're missing the middle ground...how about a slot limit, where you could keep a few fish around 13 inches, and one big fish over 18 or 20 inches? Those fish, mixed in with some spots or largemouth, would make for quite a meal. In fact, you could make the argument that you would be able to harvest more meat from a slot limit, since smaller fish are much more abundant and easier to catch than big fish.

And I have to ask, since you brought it up...would you harvest smallmouth from a river if you knew it was detrimental to the population, even though it is technically legal? What guides your philosophy on harvesting fish...the law, or what you think is ethically right?

I'm not trying to jump on you, I'm just curious about your views, because there are many anglers who agree with you.

I've probably only kept 3 or 4 in the last 2 years, so a slot limit wouldn't bother me as long as people weren't having to throw back gut hooked bass just to satisfy the slot. Since I fish on a river bordering my property, I am very aware of conservation ethics and rotate the areas that I take fish from.

What is your opinion on how floods affect the fish? Do they get washed to new holes and constantly restock areas or do the fish tend to remain? I see the same areas seemingly void of fish and the same stretches with an abundance, year after year.

[eric1978]

I've probably only kept 3 or 4 in the last 2 years, so a slot limit wouldn't bother me as long as people weren't having to throw back gut hooked bass just to satisfy the slot. Since I fish on a river bordering my property, I am very aware of conservation ethics and rotate the areas that I take fish from.

What is your opinion on how floods affect the fish? Do they get washed to new holes and constantly restock areas or do the fish tend to remain? I see the same areas seemingly void of fish and the same stretches with an abundance, year after year.

I'm not convinced that floods wash fish downriver all that much. Quite possibly and probably fry, but I think bigger fish lodge themselves under strongholds for the most part and ride it out. I'm sure some fish get swept downstream.

I think the fact that some areas hold more fish than others has more to do with the available habitat and forage in each area than flooding. Fish can and do swim upstream in moderate flooding if they are seeking a better food supply or shelter. I think for the most part smallmouth live in the same general area all their lives, but have no evidence to speak of to back that up, except that I have caught the same easily identifiable fish out of particular holes years apart on several occassions. I've caught one fish on a stretch of the Huzzah three times, and he had the most distinctly deformed caudal fin that I could never forget it. He came out of the same exact hole on all three occassions, even though that hole had been drastically transformed several times due to severe floods over the period of a few years.

[creek wader]

Can't tell ya all, how much I enjoy reading everyone's opinions, on smallies. We got our 2nd big snow of the year(6">), last week, up here. It's been below zero several times, already. The winter trout lake is all froze up. I've got cabin fever and winter hasn't officially began yet. You guys keep hashing out the same old debates. But, It's fine with me. It gives me something to read and it keeps me thinking of smallie fishing. .... Chief, I've got to get down there and experience that over population of smallies.... lol... It's got to be better than the opposite. ...wader

[Al Agnew]

Big floods don't have a whole lot of impact on adult smallmouth. They simply move to sheltered areas and wait it out. I know guys in other parts of the country who fish rivers when they are up in the trees--they catch smallies on the downstream side of big tree trunks. Like Eric, I've caught the same fish out of the same place three years in a row, and there were floods during those years. If smallmouth couldn't handle floods, there wouldn't be any smallies left. They evolved in streams that flooded.

Also, in the MDC report, it stated that if there was flooding after the main time of the spawn, that year class actually turned out better, so apparently the fingerlings can handle floods just fine as well. Only if it floods right during the middle of the spawn does the year class suffer.

Drew, not much to add to Fishgypsy's response to your spotted bass post, but maybe if the rivers in question were your home waters and you'd SEEN excellent fishing for more big smallmouth than anywhere else in Missouri disappear, replaced by myriads of 10 inch spotted bass, you'd be a little more upset about it.