One More Poll On Smallmouth Management Areas

[ozark trout fisher]

Well see, there ya go. I am surpised you have never mentioned this before.

How often were the stockings? How many were stocked?

Thanks for the geography lesson too. I don't get out of Jasper County much.

To quote A. J. McClane:

"The geography of the smallmouth bass can be traced by the growth of the American railroad. Until 1869, its range was largely confined to the Lake Ontario and Ohio River drainage systems, but as the wood-burning diamond stackers rolled south and west, the bass became a commuter. The original brood of the Potomac basin, for example, came from the Ohio River by riding over the Alleghenies on the Baltimore and Ohio in buckets hanging in the water tender. This resulted in some widely scattered plantings, and eventually the smallmouth arrived in California from Lake Ontario via New York."

Makes you wonder if any of that happened in Missouri?

That does seem odd that he says this... But how come everyone (including the MDC), considers smallmouth bass native to Missouri? Is it it possible that Mr. McClane made a mistake, and simply forgot to list the Ozark region, or had somehow received incorrect information?

I'm not saying he is wrong. I would just like to know where he got his info. I've always kinda assumed smallies are native to the Ozarks, because that is simply what I've always heard. But if there is evidence to the contrary, I would truly be interested to hear. I'll readily admit you know more about this issue that I, or most other folks on this forum, but I do know that it is considered common knowledge that smallmouth are native to Ozark streams. That doesn't necesarily mean its the case, but you get what I'm saying.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Well I guess you got me fishgypsy. This is from their web site:

About the commission

The Missouri Department of Conservation was conceived at the low point of U.S. conservation history. Unregulated hunting, fishing and trapping and the abuse of forests had decimated the state’s natural resources. Missouri sportsmen devised a solution that was as simple as it was revolutionary. They drafted a constitutional amendment creating a non-political conservation agency. Voters approved the amendment in 1936 by a margin of 71 to 29 percent, one of the largest margins by which any amendment to the state constitution has ever passed. It gave Missouri the world's first non-political, science-based conservation agency with exclusive authority over forests, fish and wildlife.

As for the spotted bass, according to my source,A.J. McClane:

A popular freswater gamefish, sometimes called Kentucky bass or Kentucky spotted bass, the spotted bass was not properly identified by fishery taxonomists until 1927....

So yes I used the term "recongized" improperly. I guess. But then again, a quick search turned up this little tid bit:

Unknown to most, cursed by many, and appreciated by a few, this powerful gamefish is often confused with both Smallmouth and Largemouth Bass. Spotted Bass are indeed a separate species and not a hybrid cross between their cousins. Spots were first discovered in the 1900's in Kentucky. It was not until 1927, that they were officially recognized as a distinct species. In 1958, the Spotted Bass was named the official state fish of Kentucky and is still recognized by the moniker "Kentucky Bass" in many areas.

During his careeer Mack Farr has kept intensive records of his countless hours pursuing Spotted Bass.

[Chief Grey Bear]

That does seem odd that he says this... But how come everyone (including the MDC), considers smallmouth bass native to Missouri? Is it it possible that Mr. McClane made a mistake, and simply forgot to list the Ozark region, or had somehow received incorrect information?

I'm not saying he is wrong. I would just like to know where he got his info. I've always kinda assumed smallies are native to the Ozarks, because that is simply what I've always heard. But if there is evidence to the contrary, I would truly be interested to hear. I'll readily admit you know more about this issue that I, or most other folks on this forum, but I do know that it is considered common knowledge that smallmouth are native to Ozark streams. That doesn't necesarily mean its the case, but you get what I'm saying.

There is no doubt in my mind that smallmouth are native to this state. The question is are they native to all of the waterways they are currently found in, in Missouri?

Construction of the first railroad in Missouri was started in 1851 in St. Louis. It was around 15 years later before it reached KC due to the Civil war. This railroad, first named the Pacific of Missouri, later to be called the Missouri Pacific, and today known as the Union Pacific, followed the Missouri River as far as Jefferson City before taking an overland route the rest of the way. A second line was also built, later, from Jefferson City to KC that continued to follow the Missouri River.

Anyway what I am getting at is all of the great north flowing smallmouth rivers that entered the Missouri were crossed by this railroad. Were these rivers stocked? I can't say. I have no idea. It certainly seems plauseable.

[fishgypsy]

I dunno what to tell you, Chief. Here's the link to the MDC data. It shows black bullhead, yellow bullhead, ozark sculpin, rainbow darter, striped fantail darter, Johnny darter, orangethroat darter, slender madtom, central stoneroller, northern studfish, blackstripe topminnow, striped shiner, bleeding shiner, hornyhead chub, golden shiner, bigeye shiner, bigeye chub, Ozark minnow, sand shiner, and bluntnose minnow were collected as early as 1930. Perhaps it wasn't MDC biologists doing the collections that early, but regardless- MDC has data on fish collections from 1930 until 1937, and the MDC report I cited above indicates MDC collected that data.

As for the quote you provided by AJ McClane, I wasn't sure what book you were referencing. But in his book Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes of North America, he writes:

"A popular freswater gamefish, sometimes called Kentucky bass or Kentucky spotted bass, the spotted bass was not properly identified by fishery taxonomists until 1927, although a naturalist, Rafinesque, and fishermen on the Ohio River, recognized it as a separate species long before then."

I did find this explanation for the confusion:

"Another native Frenchman, Constantine Rafinesque, an eccentric professor living and teaching in Kentucky is credited with recognizing the spotted bass in 1819. But this rightful recognition would not come but a century later. Like Rafinesque, the spotted bass suffered a recognition crisis. Because of its dark lateral band it resembles the largemouth bass. And to confound the problem, they live in waters similar to what smallmouths prefer. For these reasons, scientists--excepting Rafinesque, of course--and anglers long thought the spotted bass to be a hybrid of its two cousins.

Part of the reason scientists failed to accept the spotted bass as a distinct species is that Dr. James A. Henshall, a Cincinnati physician insisted his 1881 Book of the Black Bass, there were only two black basses. Yet Dr. Henshall struggled with fish identification himself. Of the preserved spotted bass specimens that we know he collected from the Ohio River, some he labeled largemouth, others smallmouth. His notebooks show he dithered back and forth on the proper identification of many spotted bass specimens.

Scientists, Dr. Henshall included, mistakenly believed the specimen Rafinesque used to describe the species was actually a smallmouth bass. Spotted bass remained obscure until 1927, when Michigan ichthyologist, Dr. Carl Hubbs proved to his peers that the spotted bass was indeed a distinct species. Originally, Dr. Hubbs named it the Kentucky bass, believing that the new species was limited to waters of that state. Our chart shows the two known subspecies of spotted bass, the northern and Alabama forms. "

The systematics were resolved in 1927. But spotted bass were identified as a species in 1819.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I can't help you with the MDC. You have seem to have your mind made up.

I am not confused when it comes to the Spotted bass. What I should have said in my original post so you didn't get confused was that the Spotted bass "was offically recongnized" as a seperate species in 1927. I just assumed, incorrectly as it turns out for some, that everyone knew what I was saying. I never said they were not identified as a seperate species. There are numerous writtings on early identification of Spotted bass, but as you also point out in your post, and what I said, they were not recongized as a seperate species.

[Wayne SW/MO]

the spotted bass was not properly identified by fishery taxonomists until 1927....

And its anybody's guess as to when very many native Missourians started to identify them. Many can't today and I wouldn't assume that the lack of identification by fishermen meant they didn't exist.

As for Smallmouth and their range, I don';t see how anyone can assume they got here by railroad when they had perfectly good rivers to travel in. The Ohio is connected to the Ozarks after all.

[Chief Grey Bear]

And its anybody's guess as to when very many native Missourians started to identify them. Many can't today and I wouldn't assume that the lack of identification by fishermen meant they didn't exist.

As for Smallmouth and their range, I don';t see how anyone can assume they got here by railroad when they had perfectly good rivers to travel in. The Ohio is connected to the Ozarks after all.

I think you are starting to get my vibe Wayne. I think it is quite possible that the Spotted bass could have already been on the move but was misidentified for many of the early years of research when it was crucial for establishing native ranges.

Nobody is assuming that the smallmouth came to the ozarks by rail. I certainly did not say that. If you read my post, I stated that I believed that smallmouth were alread here. But like fishgypsy, you are twisting what I say for what appears to be to create an artificial argument.

All I was saying is that I can see how it could have happened that way. The railroad was completed to Jeff City in 1855. From that point to say, 1870, one could wonder how much research had been done on those rivers to know what species were present. I am not sure that is fully known.

[ozark trout fisher]

I think you are starting to get my vibe Wayne. I think it is quite possible that the Spotted bass could have already been on the move but was misidentified for many of the early years of research when it was crucial for establishing native ranges.

Just out of curiosity, why would spotted bass suddenly be moving up the Meramec or Gasconade River in the 20th century when they have already had thousands of years to do so? If spotted bass were meant to be in north flowing Ozark streams, one would think that they would have been here long ago. But there is no evidence to support that they have. In my mind, they're are a few plausible explanations for the migrations of spotted bass into northern Ozark streams, and none of them are due to natural causes.

1. They were stocked in a Missouri River tributary (which they in fact have been), and migrated down the Missouri, and found they're way to the Gasconade (or in the case of the Meramec, they went down to the Mississippi, and entered the Meramec from there.

2.Relatively new installments of dams on the upper Missouri River decreased its turbidity (and therefore decreased the turbidity of the Mississippi), allowing spotted bass to use these rivers as migration routes. This works well in conjunction with possibility #1.

3. There was an undocumented stocking of spotted bass in the Meramec and/or Gasconade River.

4. Spotted bass had been living in the Mississippi and/or Missouri Rivers near the mouths of the Meramec or Gasconade for years, and global warming made these streams better spotted bass habitat. If this was the case, it would have to be as a result of man caused global warming, because no natural warming cycle can cause such a quick change in habitat. I find the possibility that global warming caused the migration extremely unlikely, but I don't know for sure.

These are really the only explanations I can come up with for spotted bass entering these streams in the last half century or less. All of these are the fault of man, and if any of these explanations are correct, the populations of spotted bass these streams couldn't be considered anything but unnatural.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Nobody is assuming that the smallmouth came to the ozarks by rail. I certainly did not say that. If you read my post, I stated that I believed that smallmouth were alread here. But like fishgypsy, you are twisting what I say for what appears to be to create an artificial argument.

There was nothing in my post aimed at your post, what I am saying is if they did bring some by rail they well could have been here anyway.

CGB, if you look at my post you'll see that I've questioned whether the Spot invasion has never been seen before. It really doesn't matter, the raparian, the flows and many other forces are at work in a negative way on smallie waters. There are probably only two options to address the problem, stop mans assault on the stream environment and eat more spots.

[fishgypsy]

I am not confused when it comes to the Spotted bass. What I should have said in my original post so you didn't get confused was that the Spotted bass "was offically recongnized" as a seperate species in 1927. I just assumed, incorrectly as it turns out for some, that everyone knew what I was saying. I never said they were not identified as a seperate species. There are numerous writtings on early identification of Spotted bass, but as you also point out in your post, and what I said, they were not recongized as a seperate species.

Chief, I'm not trying to twist your words. I think our argument is more about language than anything.

Spotted bass were "officially recognized" by Rafinesque, in 1819. He collected specimens, compared them to existing specimens of smallmouth and largemouth bass, noted morphological differences which were different between the species, noted diagnostic morphology which could be used to identify spotted bass and separate them between smallies and largemouth, and published his findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. A scientific name was affixed to spotted bass, (Calliurus punctulatus). Once that name was in print, it became the valid species name for spotted bass, and the species was officially recognized by the scientific community.

The spotted bass was formally described as a subspecies by Rafinesque, not by Hubbs. Hubbs simply corroborated Rafinesque's earlier findings, that spotted bass were a species separate from smallmouth and largemouth. It's true biologists were misidentifying spotted bass in many collections. That doesn't mean, though, that spotted bass were first identified by scientists in 1927.