I'm Really, Really Sick Of This...

[Kicknbass]

Actually, if it was the stretch of river I think it was, it gets plenty clear enough to gig, and was that clear before the last round of rain. And since they mentioned that they caught several bass with gig marks, if somebody was doing it by accident they were being criminally careless.

Is that stretch of water regularly clear enough to gig throughout the season, or is this a stretch that is clear only during the coldest part of the season. I'm just curious as to the realistic duration of the gigging events in this stretch.

You could be correct to think that they were criminally careless, or it could be the fish are surviving the injury and it has occurred from several folks over the course of a 4 month season. Obviously they were careless if the injuries were accidental. I just don't believe these bass were intentionally gigged, and then return back to the water.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I haven't gigged, but I see fish in daylight all the time on clear streams and I don't see any resemblance between smallies and suckers. Its seem that each species of fish that travel in clear streams have some characteristic that makes them easily identified.

AS far as herons go, I've watched them and eagles for hours at the pothole when its low. I've seen the eagles take trout that appear to be 10-12" long at times, but herons seem content with fish 6" or smaller. I can't imagine a heron sticking anything he cant eat, and they aren't pelicans.

[fishgypsy]

IMO, whether it's intentional or not is immaterial. Part of being a responsible sportsman is being able to identify your target positively before you pull the trigger. If you can't identify positively what you're about to stick, you shouldn't stick it. If the water's too turbid to be certain as to the species, you shouldn't be out that section of river, on that night.

[jdmidwest]

Last year, several hunters confused Trumpeter Swans with Snow Geese and killed a few illegally. If we use the analogy of most on here, Snow Goose hunting would be eliminated.

Has anyone ever fished a small stream and watched the fish in a stream. I have noticed that Smallies for some reason will school with the suckers in a stream. So I can see a pattern as to why that they may get stabbed while gigging for suckers. But they should know what they are stabbing at. Frog giggers in streams will target bass also, but we don't need to abolish frog gigging.

I have observed it and Al's statement confirmed it, Greater Blue Herons will stab a fish larger than it can eat for some unknown reason. When they stab a fish, it usually kills it.

[fishgypsy]

Last year, several hunters confused Trumpeter Swans with Snow Geese and killed a few illegally. If we use the analogy of most on here, Snow Goose hunting would be eliminated.

I have observed it and Al's statement confirmed it, Greater Blue Herons will stab a fish larger than it can eat for some unknown reason. When they stab a fish, it usually kills it.

I thought about using that analogy too JD, just taking it a different direction. I'm getting the vibe that some folks out there would be okay with the swans being shot, so long as it was a genuine mistake. In my opinion, it simply doesn't fly (no pun intended). I see no need to ban gigging because some folks can't identify fish, but it wouldn't bother me if giggers who couldn't identify their quarry had to face the same penalties as waterfowlers who couldn't identify their quarry (a few grand in fines and revocation of sporting priveleges).

And I can't be certain how those swans died in the first place. I didn't see the guys shoot them, and I've never heard of waterfowlers targeting swans. Which leads me to this hypothesis:

Eagles attack swans, and the incident in question took place at Eagle Bluffs. So I mean, it's possible that those birds died of the result of eagle attacks, not of a couple boneheaded "sportsmen."

Plus, I thought that photo was way cool

[Kicknbass]

IMO, whether it's intentional or not is immaterial. Part of being a responsible sportsman is being able to identify your target positively before you pull the trigger. If you can't identify positively what you're about to stick, you shouldn't stick it. If the water's too turbid to be certain as to the species, you shouldn't be out that section of river, on that night.

Yes we also shouldn't drive to fast or after you'd been drinking. You should honor thy mother and thy father..Blah Blah Blah...Imperfection is part of the human condition. Ye who are perfect cast the first stone....

There's no excuse for it, but it happens... Let's take away the rights of all do to the transgressions of a few.

[Wayne SW/MO]

There was a program on PBS last night on gigging. It featured the traditional gig in the middle of the river for suckers and follow it up with a fish fry on the bank. There's nothing wrong with the sport as its been practiced forever, but that doesn't mean the MDC can't make an effort as Fishgypsy said to make those who simply want to gig fish, pay. Word can travel fast in some circles and I think a message could be sent.

As gar as a Heron sticking a 15" smallie, I would have to see it believe it. I've observed them all my life and while I've seen them with perch that turned out to be too wide to swallow, I've never seen one hit a long fish that I know of.

[fishgypsy]

Yes we also shouldn't drive to fast or after you'd been drinking. You should honor thy mother and thy father..Blah Blah Blah...Imperfection is part of the human condition. Ye who are perfect cast the first stone....

There's no excuse for it, but it happens... Let's take away the rights of all do to the transgressions of a few.

I thought it was about holding people accountable for their individual actions and behavior, not taking away everyone's rights. My mistake.

*Fade into wistful flashback....*

I still remember one of the first fall turkey hunts I went on with my dad, back when the rule was one bird a day. He shot two with one shot. It was a mistake, and arguably, he shouldn't have taken the shot.

He could've thrown one in a ditch, or not tagged it and stuck it in the freezer. Instead, we took it to the check station. He was sure to get a ticket, and he did- not only because he shot two birds in one day, but also because he had misread the calendar, and the season didn't start until the next day . The agent gave him some leniancy (few people would admit to shooting two birds, especially out of season), but he still had to pay 80 bucks or so in fines. That had a big impact on me- no one's perfect, I don't expect them to be. The difference is whether you accept responsibility for the consequences of those mistakes.

I guess that, in my mind, I can't justify killing something if I'm not absolutely certain as to what it is. If that means passing on game, so be it.

And I'm still not convinced on the whole heron thing. Even if we excluded all smallmouth which appear to have gig ("heron") wounds...what about hellbenders? I've seen several with obvious gig wounds, and they live in habitats where they're inaccessible to herons. What's stabbing them?

[Kicknbass]

I thought it was about holding people accountable for their individual actions and behavior, not taking away everyone's rights. My mistake.

*Fade into wistful flashback....*

I still remember one of the first fall turkey hunts I went on with my dad, back when the rule was one bird a day. He shot two with one shot. It was a mistake, and arguably, he shouldn't have taken the shot.

He could've thrown one in a ditch, or not tagged it and stuck it in the freezer. Instead, we took it to the check station. He was sure to get a ticket, and he did- not only because he shot two birds in one day, but also because he had misread the calendar, and the season didn't start until the next day . The agent gave him some leniancy (few people would admit to shooting two birds, especially out of season), but he still had to pay 80 bucks or so in fines. That had a big impact on me- no one's perfect, I don't expect them to be. The difference is whether you accept responsibility for the consequences of those mistakes.

I guess that, in my mind, I can't justify killing something if I'm not absolutely certain as to what it is. If that means passing on game, so be it.

And I'm still not convinced on the whole heron thing. Even if we excluded all smallmouth which appear to have gig ("heron") wounds...what about hellbenders? I've seen several with obvious gig wounds, and they live in habitats where they're inaccessible to herons. What's stabbing them?

That turkey hunting story is funny.

I guess my expectations of what people do and what you think that people should do are slightly different. In a perfect world, I guess you could except someone that mistakenly gigs a game fish or doubles up on a turkey or kills a hen pheasant, to drive to the nearest agent and turn themselves in. I certainly wouldn't think this behavior is wrong, but, I would not expect this kind of unbelievable honestly from the majority of folks that I know.

[Sam]

There's a class of people, unfortunately, for whom poaching is a way of life. They're the ones gigging your sport fish illegally.

I own 160 acres of woods, 'way out in the Ozarks boondocks, for deer and turkey hunting. I get along with my two main neighbors and they're good working people. Other neighbors around there I know by occasional contact and reputation and I just leave them alone.

It seems like the farther you get from towns in the Ozarks, the rougher some of the people are. Or, maybe the rough ones just make up a bigger percent of the population.

You know what I mean. Drunks, meth labs, in and out of jail, always fighting with their neighbors about something, and - poaching. I go down there for bowhunting season and it sounds like a war going on - seems like there's more rifle hunting then than during gun season. Anytime there's a buck around with a good rack, he gets spotlighted and poached. If I ever actually see violations going on I'll turn them in, but I bet that'll get my hunting cabin burned down.

Some of these guys, when they're not running deer with dogs and spotlighting, go gigging. I've heard of from the neighbors (but not seen) some hellacious big fish frys of ALL species after gigging trips on North Fork and Bryant Creek.

That's the problem, and they're aren't gigging bass accidentally. Just like when the same people break the alcohol and drug laws, the only way to control it is through citizens reporting it to law enforcement and law enforcement (hopefully) following up on it. That's tough to do when most of these violations happen when no one is watching.