Msa's Blue Ribbon Panel Update

[Gary Lange]

Andy, the MSA needs guys like you with a passion for the Smallmouth Bass. Step up and become a member my friend and I mean you are my friend I need a young man to carry on and Smallies need and Alliance in Kansas to protect them.

[Kicknbass]

My point is if MDC implies that there's significant support for 12/6, I'd like to know who they are. I know people up and down the river (landowners, clubhouse / jet boater types, farmers and your more conservation oriented guys) and nobody I know would quibble with 15/3. It's very reasonable.

I'll quibble w/ the 15/3 limit. A 15" fish is an old fish that should swim to fight another day, but not a trophy if someone wants Harvey Wallhanger. I've always like the slot idea. Maybe a 4/1 -12/20 slot. This would allow those who would like to keep a few to eat to have their cake (4 sub 12" and/or 1 trophy size 20+) and trophies too. Once a fish reaches 12" it's protected until it reaches trophy size of 20".

I believe plenty would reach the protected slot to produce a great fishery with this type of reg. Texas has this type of slot on Lake Fork that seams to work.

[Kicknbass]

She made me help her do that Spring Cleaning thing then suckered me into making Pizza for Supper tonight. She is a sly little fox that girl! :rolleyes:

That's a good looking pizza.

[KCRIVERRAT]

Just a guess, but out of the nearly 10,000 people on this forum who are surely paying attention to this thread, I'm willing to bet there's a few groups of who knows how many who have been able to get together and make a difference in there community, church, the MDC, or whatever. Sheer numbers were the difference no doubt. In the same aspects, I'd bet there's a few individuals who have, all by their lonesome, managed to accomplish the same.

Myself? I ain't done squat, except play by the rules and enjoy what my state has to offer.

See ya on the river...

[Dan Kreher]

I'll quibble w/ the 15/3 limit. A 15" fish is an old fish that should swim to fight another day, but not a trophy if someone wants Harvey Wallhanger. I've always like the slot idea. Maybe a 4/1 -12/20 slot. This would allow those who would like to keep a few to eat to have their cake (4 sub 12" and/or 1 trophy size 20+) and trophies too. Once a fish reaches 12" it's protected until it reaches trophy size of 20".

I believe plenty would reach the protected slot to produce a great fishery with this type of reg. Texas has this type of slot on Lake Fork that seams to work.

Large protected slot limits like the 4/1 - 12"/20" reg you noted have been used increasingly on SMB rivers throughout the US. Such a reg protects the adult SMB that anglers seek while allowing harvest of smaller fish (which many folks wouldn't really bother keeping anyway) while allowing one to harvest a true trophy river SMB if so inclined. It kind of gives something to the consumptive anglers while protecting the resource and greatly increases the overall quality of a fishery. These types of regs are in place on some of the finer SMB streams in the country today including the Kankakee River in Illinois, the Penobscott in Maine, the Mississippi in Minnesota, the New River in North Carolina/Virginia, the John Day in Oregon, and on 7 of eastern Tennessee's better SMB streams. So, fisheries managers in several states do have faith in slot limits.

Missouri has used slot limits to manage LMB on certain of its lakes within wildlife areas around the state but seem reluctant to use slots on our SMB streams. So, rather than get into a long-winded philosophical discussion witeh MDC over the pro's and con's of slots, the MO Smallmouth Alliance panel thought it best to suggest the expansion of Special Regs areas featuring the established 15/1 and 18/1 limits that have proven themselves successful per the MDC's own evaluation of their effectiveness. And, in an effort to protect the resource on a more widespread basis, improve average fish sizes, angler catch rates and PSDs of fish at least up to 15" in length, we suggested the change in the statewide regs to 15" MLL/ 3 fish creel. Will this produce trophies everywhere? No, but it does help improve fishing quality while still being palatable to most reasonable anglers today.

So that's how we got were we were. Once again, to avoid unproductive conflict over the MDC's White Paper effort we did not propose special regs on those streams in the SW corner of MO that were evaluated but failed to make the MDC's grade for special regs. Were they incorrect in their assessments? Perhaps. It sure sounds like folks on this board would have like these fisheries to have received more protection. I cannot argue with those sentiments since I believe that few fisheries in the Ozarks would not benefit from a reduction in angler harvest - Neoshos or whatever strain of SMB swim in them.

Regarding anglers' passion, commitment, motivation and all that, I can only say that face-to-face, constructive conversations on these issues may prove to be much more productive exercises than back-and-forth jibs and jabs amongs posters likely stricken with Cabin Fever. Get together with Mr. Lange and help get him up to speed on these brown fish and their haunts down Springfield way. Heck, he probably won't even charge you the $20 just to show up at a meeting and talk. You might even find a fishin' partner or two. I know that I've met all mine though my 18-year affiliation with MSA. If you want to hook up and affiliate with the only conservation-based organization in the state that is striving to create world class SMB fishing here at home, the Missouri Smallmouth Alliance, all are more than welcome. Your 20 bucks gets you Chuck Tryon's book which is a fair trade right there, membership for a year and subscriptions to a couple of good outdoor publications as well as MSA's newsletter. If we didn't have costs associated with producing the newsletter and supporting conservation-related projects like sign posting at all MDC and other stream access points, kids educational programs, website, etc. we wouldn't even charge any annual dues at all. That being said, I don't think dues have even gone up in over 10 years.

Done with the commercial. I'm going fishing.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I'll quibble w/ the 15/3 limit. A 15" fish is an old fish that should swim to fight another day, but not a trophy if someone wants Harvey Wallhanger.

I think we have to assume that in regards to the MSA any size limits is aimed at the general public and not the organization. There are two ways that most fish are caught and kept, and that's from a single point or a short wade and in order to get 3 15" fish under these circumstance they will have be very lucky.

I don't think the idea behind it is to produce wallbangers, but big fish photos.

[drew03cmc]

Well I have no idea where you stand. To be perfectly honest Andy, you make absolutely no sense to me. I think you need to galvanize your position or something. You're for regs? You're against regs? You're for regs but you're against MDC? You're for protection but you're against MSA? You C&R but you don't want C&R? They rarely grow over 15" but a 15" MLL won't help? I'm baffled.

What regs would you like to see for your home streams? If you say none, fine, but then you have to stop whining that no one pays attention to your part of the state. If you say you would like SOME kind of tighter regs, then a statewide 15/3 would be a good start, no? Sounds like you want your cake and you wanna bitch about it, too.

Eric, where the hell do you get that I am against MSA or the MDC? I am infinitely supportive of MSA and their attempts at conservation of the native smallmouth fisheries, including the Neosho smallmouth. I am against the MDC's indifference to the Neosho smallmouth. I would like to see a 15/3 or 15/1 at the least. C&R statewide is ideal, but it will never happen. I am for regulations, but not for blanket regulations based solely upon the other side of the Ozarks and that different strain of fish.

Wayne, the Neosho smallmouth does not grow to the size of the TN strain smallmouth. Anyone that has spent time chasing both can see this. The average size of TN strain fish in the state, in my experience, is 12-13". The average Neosho, again, in my experience, is 9-10" with a top end size of 17" or so. The TN strain fish grows to 6+# in Missouri waters. Also, that is one of the resources that I have seen denoting the genetic difference between the TN strain, Ouachita strain and Neosho strain smallmouths.

Al, I would like to see, in your proposal, some exception regulations for the SWMO streams. I want to see this, because the Neoshos deserve the special recognition they are currently being deprived of in Missouri. This is my position, and it has not changed.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Wayne, a 15" MLL does nothing, as the few fish over 15" are very old fish. 18" or straight C&R would be better.

I would like to see a 15/3 or 15/1 at the least.

Confusing?

Where's your source that shows that the MDC stocked Tennessee strain smallies? If I'm not mistaken I had at one time reference to the fact that they never had. They haven't in fact stocked smallmouth for decades.

You seem to assume that all the fish, native smallmouth, in Missouri streams are Tennessee, unless its in the Spring river or Elk watersheds. I would like to see your source for that.

I don't see what else the MDC could do for the Neosho, they don't stock in their watershed, and so far neither has OK above Grand, and they are monitoring the spots, which you seem to oppose. The Elk is an SMA and they have looked at other areas, so its not as if they are ignoring them. The fact is that you are apparently the only one who believes the Neosho should have preferential treatment.

Given the distance you live from the SWMO streams, you should not assume that those from the east don't fish this way on occasion too.

[drew03cmc]

Wayne, do you research anything about the smallmouth bass in your own state and region? There are TN strain, Ouachita and Neosho in the Ozarks/Oklahoma's Ouachita Mountains. The TN strain is the most commonly stocked fish, due to their propensity for growing to a large size and their adaptability to river and reservoir environments. Please, before you are to call someone else's statements wrong, do your own research. You seem to talk a lot, with little knowledge of what you are talking about. Did you bother to read most of my post or just what supports your pissing and moaning? I said, I would support a 15/3 or 15/1 at the least. I would prefer C&R statewide, but that will never happen.

You don't seem to have read the entire discussion on Neosho smallmouth. If you had, you would have seen that there are others extremely concerned with preserving the native Neosho smallmouth bass. I am sorry that you feel the way you do, but I am trying to straighten out what you seem to infer from reading a line or two of my posts.

From -http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/conservation/news/story?page=b_bt_Con_preserving_smallmouth

"Research done at Oklahoma State University found that the native smallmouth in northeast Oklahoma, in the foothills of the Ozarks, are a little bit different genetically than smallmouth native to southeast Oklahoma, in the Ouachita Mountains," Gilliland said. "And both of those groups are different from smallmouth bass in other parts of Oklahoma and Missouri."

I guess these guys don't know what they are talking about either?

[Wayne SW/MO]

Wayne, do you research anything about the smallmouth bass in your own state and region? There are TN strain, Ouachita and Neosho in the Ozarks/Oklahoma's Ouachita Mountains. The TN strain is the most commonly stocked fish, due to their propensity for growing to a large size and their adaptability to river and reservoir environments. Please, before you are to call someone else's statements wrong, do your own research.

Where's your source that shows that the MDC stocked Tennessee strain smallies? If I'm not mistaken I had at one time reference to the fact that they never had. They haven't in fact stocked smallmouth for decades.I have and I can find no reference to Missouri stocking the TN strain. Obviously you have, or seem to indicate that you have, so again references?

From -http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/conservation/news/story?page=b_bt_Con_preserving_smallmouth

"Research done at Oklahoma State University found that the native smallmouth in northeast Oklahoma, in the foothills of the Ozarks, are a little bit different genetically than smallmouth native to southeast Oklahoma, in the Ouachita Mountains," Gilliland said. "And both of those groups are different from smallmouth bass in other parts of Oklahoma and Missouri."

I believe if you look back I posted this very statement, but I also posted one that indicates that not all "experts" agree, but everyone is free to pick and choose to support an argument, aren't they?

I guess these guys don't know what they are talking about either? Well like I said, they don't all agree