Lead Ban On All Fishing Tackle

[Wayne SW/MO]

"But suggesting that lead does no harm is just as much an exaggeration as suggesting it's a huge problem."

But wouldn't it make sense to identify a problem, as opposed to jumping in and curing a "maybe". If East Anglia U is right then it would seem that under this cure we should tear down and bury civilization and return to caves, just in case.

[Outside Bend]

Wow.

I was out of town, and it looks like I missed a lot. Here are my thoughts, in a nutshell (Part I)

1.) The "alternatives are too expensive," argument is utterly bogus. It's cheaper for me to litter than to pay the garbageman, that doesn't give me an excuse to litter.

2.) Since when did we have the right to use lead sinkers?

3.) You’re right, lead is naturally occurring. However, I’ve never heard of anyone mining for lead sinkers. Most lead is sequestered in ores such as galena, which is less reactive than the purified metal. Mistaking processed lead and lead ore is like mistaking table sugar and a sugar beet. They ain’t the same.

4.) Water birds use water (duh). There isn’t much difference between lead gun-shot and lead split-shot, and when you put either in the water, it becomes available to birds for use as grit. This leads to lead poisoning. And although a fish may not eat the shot, the inverts the fish prey on will be scraping algae and detritus off the shot, ingesting lead, and it works its way up the food chain from there. C’mon guys, this is fourth grade science… Suffice it to say lead is nasty stuff for pretty much all living organisms, not just people, ducks, geese and doves.

5.) I’m amazed that you guys are 100% positive there’s no negative effects of lead in the environment even though I’d be willing to bet none of you have actually done the research. If you guys are clairvoyant, there’s a lot more pressing needs for that gift.

Moreover, I don’t understand how you can say “there’s no evidence lead harms wildlife,” when in fact there’s reams of data indicating lead (including lead fishing tackle) has negative impacts on wildlife. If you don‘t want to believe something that‘s fine, as they say, ignorance is bliss. But don’t be dishonest.

Plus, it would be a lot harder to discredit what you guys say if you took the time to look things up, and figure out what you’re about to write is even remotely accurate

[Outside Bend]

OK, I personally believe in God and that he made all of this that we live in and see around us. Some mistakenly believe in a large explosion blew an ape apart and it landed unharmed all over the world and grew up to work for the govt, or something like that. But either way, this proves we can use lead. If I'm right then God has everything under control. If they are right, then when we enter the anthropocene epoch age, then all the lead will melt from the heat (also known as the end of times if you believe in God) You see, if you read the above from these very smart people (sarcasm), then you will see that the shifts from the migration patterns of birds and mammals would lead them away from us dirty filthy humans and thus, they would be far away from our lead litter that we made up.

I had to tackle this separately. By far one of the saddest, most entertaining posts I've seen on OA- It reminded me a lot of the Billy Madison quiz bowl

God may have created lead, but He wasn't stupid enough to leave it lying around as a pure metal, in high concentrations, in most places. It typically occurs naturally as a less reactive ore, mixed with other elements like sulphur and oxygen. Lead tackle, though, is basically refined, 100% lead, something very rare in nature.

If you want to take the bible literally, fine, but I can't seem to recall any passages stating "Thou Shalt Use Lead." I do recall Numbers 35 though, which states something to the effect of:

"You shall not pollute the land in which you live, you shall not defile the land in which you live, in which I also dwell."

I'd consider introducing hazardous materials into the environment pollution/defilement of the land, so yeah, the Bible tells us not to use lead, or at least not pollute the planet with it. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

The last part (re: the anthropocene epoch), is, to put it bluntly, completely ignorant and backward- you could start a whole other topic debunking what you wrote. Suffice it to say no one's making it up- animals really are going extinct at an incredible rate, and human activity seems to be the main cause. As for migrations you have it precisely correct- when you put an oil field in the midst of an antelope migration corridor the animals will go around it, problem is that migration corridor is there for a reason- it's the best habitat for them to migrate through. They're pushed off prime habitat and into poorer areas, and their populations suffer.

When you really think about it, these things aren't all that difficult to grasp.

[Wayne SW/MO]

"Water birds use water (duh). There isn’t much difference between lead gun-shot and lead split-shot, and when you put either in the water, it becomes available to birds for use as grit. This leads to lead poisoning. And although a fish may not eat the shot, the inverts the fish prey on will be scraping algae and detritus off the shot, ingesting lead, and it works its way up the food chain from there. C’mon guys, this is fourth grade science…"

And the evidence supporting this fourth grade science is where??? Yes we know that in California they have warn pregnant women not to eat lead items, and yes lead in it purest forms is harmful. Fortunately we check critters for harmful elements. The problem is that Mercury seems to be the number one culprit, so before we stop using sinkers because they MAY cause some harm, we should probably shut down all the power plants because they do.

[Outside Bend]

Here, let me Google that for you

Lead in Mute Swans

"We also conducted a survey of blood lead levels in 921 swans over the same period and 74% were found to have elevated blood lead levels over 1.21 μmol/l. "

More Mr. Swan

"Of 94 swan corpses examined at post-mortem 57% died from lead poisoning due to ingestion of anglers' weights. Birds dying from lead poisoning had significantly higher liver and kidney lead levels."

/42/3/651"'>Seals

"An adult female harbor seal (Phoca vitulina richardsi) stranded in northern California on 25 June 2004, exhibited progressive weakness, disorientation, and seizures, and despite therapy, died within 4 days. On pathologic examination, a lead fishing sinker was in the stomach, and changes in the brain, heart, kidney, liver, lymph nodes, and spleen were supportive of acute lead toxicosis"

More swans

Loons

"Diagnostic and analytical findings are presented for 105 common loons (Gavia immer) found dead or debilitated in New York (USA) from 1972-99. Aspergillosis (23% of cases) and ingestion of lead fishing weights (21%) were the most common pathologies encountered"

Even penguins.

"Miscellaneous causes of death included entanglement in discarded fishing tackle and/or plastic debris, the toxic effects of oil in birds contaminated by marine spills and chronic lead poisoning (due to ingestion of part of a lead fishing sinker)."

Pacific Loons

"ead poisoning, associated with ingestion of spent lead shot, was diagnosed in an adult female Pacific loon (Gavia pacifica) observed with partial paralysis on 13 June 2002 and found dead on 16 June 2002 on Kigigak Island, Yukon Delta National Wildlife Refuge, western Alaska, USA"

Then I got lazy. This thread is plumb idiotic. If you'd like to go ahead and track down all the citations, be my guest. But here's something I found interesting:

"The situation seems to be similar in fish. Adult fish

of some species appear to be relatively insensitive

to acute toxicity, but their eggs and larvae can show

dramatic effects at low levels of exposure, sometimes

resulting in population level effects and ecosystem

alteration (Carpenter 1924a, b, Dilling et al.

1926, Jones 1964, Srivastava and Mishra 1979,

Birge et al. 1979, Johansson-Sjöbeck and Larsson

1979, Newsome and Piron 1982, Hodson et al.

1984, Coughlan et al. 1986, Dallinger et al. 1987,

Tewari et al. 1987, Eisler 1988, Tulasi et al. 1989,

Sorensen 1991, Weber et al. 1997, Kasthuri and

Chandran 1997, Chaurasia et al. 1996, Chaurasia

and Kar 1999, Shafiq-ur-Rehman 2003, Martinez et

al. 2004, Shah 2006). It seems clear that as more

studies explore the sub-lethal effects of lead exposure

in non-human species, there will be increased

emphasis on integrating our thinking so that threats

to human health are understood in the context of an

over all environmental well-being."

So yeah, the assertion that there's no evidence of lead negatively impacting wildlife is complete and utter BS

I couldn't find info regarding lead's mobility through aquatic ecosystems, but I did find an example which makes the point:

"The Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) may be a

prime illustration of our need for a more comprehensive

understanding of lead exposure sources in

wildlife. Recently, one of these rodents was brought

to the Tufts Wildlife Clinic and found to have a

markedly elevated blood lead level of over

65μg/dL. Anecdotal stories of squirrels chewing on

lead chimney flashing have been reported by

homeowners for years, and recently a New Hampshire

Fish and Game biologist confirmed that she

regularly receives calls about “problem” squirrels

that continually gnaw on chimney flashing. Analogous

to children eating flecks of lead-based paint,

this may be evidence of pica in squirrels. It may

also be one explanation for the lead-poisoned

predators like Red-tailed Hawks and Barred Owls

that are periodically submitted to Tufts’ Wildlife

Clinic. Because millions of homes nationwide have

lead flashing around chimneys, doors, and other

openings, this appears to represents an overlooked

source of plumbism in wildlife."

I guess I figure if lead can move from squirrels to hawks and owls, it can likely move from aquatic invertebrates to fish.

[Quillback]

Still haven't seen any proof or references to how lead used in fishing lures (not lead shot or split shot) is having any significant impact on waterfowl or any fish or animals. The somewhat longwinded arguments I have seen do not quote any studies, which is about what you would expect from a 4th graders paper on lead in the environment.

[Quillback]

OK, look at the loon study and think about what it says:

Diagnostic and analytical findings are presented for 105 common loons (Gavia immer) found dead or debilitated in New York (USA) from 1972-99. Aspergillosis (23% of cases) and ingestion of lead fishing weights (21%) were the most common pathologies encountered. Stranding on land, shooting, other trauma, gill nets, air sacculitis and peritonitis, and emaciation of uncertain etiology accounted for most of the remaining causes of disease or death.

105 loons dies in a 27 year span (1972-99), that's about 4 per year. Only 21 % died from lead poisoning. So in total 22 loons died from lead poisoning in 27 years, less than one per year.

In the case of the penguins, again if you read what you're referencing, death by lead poisoning is far down on the list of penguin mortality.

And in the Pacific Loon case it clearly states it is lead shot that is the issue.

Yes lead is a problem, banning lead shot is good, I can see where a ban on lead split shot might make sense, though I am not convinced that by itself it is an issue. But I see no reason to ban the use of lead in fishing lures such as jigs or spiiner baits.

[Outside Bend]

105 loons dies in a 27 year span (1972-99), that's about 4 per year. Only 21 % died from lead poisoning. So in total 22 loons died from lead poisoning in 27 years, less than one per year.

In the case of the penguins, again if you read what you're referencing, death by lead poisoning is far down on the list of penguin mortality.

How many of those birds would've died of ingesting lead fishing tackle if lead fishing tackle wasn't in use?

And if those 105 birds are representative of the population as a whole, and 1/5th of the birds are dying as a result of lead poisoning...isn't that a significant issue?

And in the Pacific Loon case it clearly states it is lead shot that is the issue.

What exactly is the difference between a piece of lead gunshot and a similarly sized piece of lead split shot? A cut? They're both made of lead, right? Is one somehow less toxic than the other?

Yes lead is a problem, banning lead shot is good, I can see where a ban on lead split shot might make sense, though I am not convinced that by itself it is an issue. But I see no reason to ban the use of lead in fishing lures such as jigs or spiiner baits.

If you've fished, you've likely broken off a jighead or spinner. It's my understanding most hooks will rust, dissolve, or otherwise degrade in water with time. If you're using a hook with a gob of lead on the end, and the hook rusts out, what do you have left? Basically, a hunk of lead shot.

I guess I just can't seem to find a compelling reason to keep using lead. In my opinion it's only virtue is that it's cheap, and the cheapest solution isn't always the best. Don't get me wrong- I love fishing as much as the next guy. But needlessly poisoning the environment because lead is more convenient and cheaper than tungsten or other alternatives just ain't my style.

[FishinCricket]

Thank you OB for (in a way) explaining my earlier "What a maroon" comment...

[Outside Bend]

Thank you OB for (in a way) explaining my earlier "What a maroon" comment...

No problem Cricket, it can get awfully Looney in here from time to time