White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[troutfiend1985]

In another forum, one of our members brought up the idea of a trout management wish list. I put down that I would like to see the MDC change its policy on the white ribbon management areas. To me, I just don't understand why MDC has a white ribbon management area at all because it creates a put and take fishery. I refer to the regulations as "law of the wild west" as just about anything goes and there is no real focus on maintaining a quality fishery in these areas. In my view, stocking these streams wastes our tax money as the fish are removed almost immediatley from the stream, and the current regulations fail to provide a consistent quality fishing experience.

In my opinion, the White Ribbon areas are almost a policy of appeasement by the MDC. I see it as a statement of "lets give the people a place to fish and keep trout and while the trout will probably never get big because it's put and take regulations, it will take pressure off of the blue/red ribbon streams of that area."

And to me this regulation policy is baloney. Capps and Hickory Creek, the two white ribbons that I fish, could both be quality fisheries if s different management strategy was taken. I would like to propose two regulations to the MDC, but before I start writing letters I want to know what you think.

1). Decrease the daily limit from 4 fish to 2 fish in White Ribbon management areas. The purpose of this rule is obvious, even if some, or most, people do not adhere to this at least a few will. And even if only a few people keep only two fish there are more fish in the stream for everyone else. Let the limit stay the same at the Trout Parks, but the White Ribbon streams simply cannot handle the type of pressure a four fish limit places on them.

2). Make a catch and release area/"flies only" area on each White Ribbon management area. This area does not need to be a huge portion of the stream, just enough to make a "buffer zone" where the trout can become more "wild." This would also give the stream at least a chance to offer quality fishing year 'round. I know that I would rather fish Capps any day over RR or Bennett, but the whole idea of bait buckets wiping out the fish tends to scare me away from fishing them more frequently.

These two changes would keep the white ribbons popular with families and people who want to fish with bait, but at the same time would allow other anglers an opportunity to experience quality fishing all year. If anyone has a different view, post it, but I would really want to know why, and not just my opinion is off or irrelevant.

[drew03cmc]

Propose that MDC lets the non self-sustainable populations become non-existent through natural processes and see where the fish persist. I feel that some of the "White Ribbon" streams are capable of supporting a small number of resident, spawning trout even though everyone writes them off as dumps. Some of the habitat on the streams is ideal spawning habitat from a non-biologist perspective and I would like to see some fish with parr marks in the creeks.

[Outside Bend]

Propose that MDC lets the non self-sustainable populations become non-existent through natural processes and see where the fish persist.

Why?

[jdmidwest]

Why purpose any new laws? An ethical sportsman will only take the fish he needs to eat anyway, the others will do what they do no matter what the law is. Enforce the laws and limits already in place and stop the lawbreakers. If you see a lawbreaker, turn them in and help out in the enforcement.

The rule book already needs a lawyer to figure it out anyway. No need to complicate it further.

There are White Ribbon areas that are packed daily with fish called Trout Parks. The other areas are wild enough that they could support a trout marginally, but have displaced the native fish in the stream to the point that we have lost the natural balance of the stream. I see both sides and lean both ways, I like to trout fish and I like to fish for other species. I don't rely on the fish for food so I am indifferent to the management of each species to feed my family. I do like "quality" fishing, I don't like practicing my casting to dead water.

The White River System was a Premium Smallmouth stream till the river was dammed and the water temps were lowered. It was at that point the introduction of Non Native trout became the prime species on that system.

Eleven Point River was a prime Smallmouth Stream till the Rainbow trout was introduced. Both compete for the same food source and the Rainbow Trout has the advantage by the unnatural selection of the MDC dumping an overwhelming amount of them in the stream every month by boat and truck. Spring River in Arkansas is another example. Probably many more of the many stocked streams in the US have experience the same problem. We messed with nature by stocking non-native fish to fill our desires, not nature's natural process of selection.

[drew03cmc]

Why?

Read JD's post. That sums it up.

Why purpose any new laws? An ethical sportsman will only take the fish he needs to eat anyway, the others will do what they do no matter what the law is. Enforce the laws and limits already in place and stop the lawbreakers. If you see a lawbreaker, turn them in and help out in the enforcement.

The rule book already needs a lawyer to figure it out anyway. No need to complicate it further.

There are White Ribbon areas that are packed daily with fish called Trout Parks. The other areas are wild enough that they could support a trout marginally, but have displaced the native fish in the stream to the point that we have lost the natural balance of the stream. I see both sides and lean both ways, I like to trout fish and I like to fish for other species. I don't rely on the fish for food so I am indifferent to the management of each species to feed my family. I do like "quality" fishing, I don't like practicing my casting to dead water.

The White River System was a Premium Smallmouth stream till the river was dammed and the water temps were lowered. It was at that point the introduction of Non Native trout became the prime species on that system.

Eleven Point River was a prime Smallmouth Stream till the Rainbow trout was introduced. Both compete for the same food source and the Rainbow Trout has the advantage by the unnatural selection of the MDC dumping an overwhelming amount of them in the stream every month by boat and truck. Spring River in Arkansas is another example. Probably many more of the many stocked streams in the US have experience the same problem. We messed with nature by stocking non-native fish to fill our desires, not nature's natural process of selection.

[Buzz]

So, what's wrong with making a stream fit more than one type of fishing experience??? The fly flingers, most of whom are C&R, can fish all of the stream after the stocking and the bait chunkers have their section that they can take their limit if they want to. Then, after the bait chunkers have raped their much LARGER section they can come on over to the C&R section and still enjoy catching trout. It really seems like a win win to me. It would take no longer for fishermen to figure this out than the 4 fish limit did.

[Gavin]

What is wrong with a put & take trout fishery outside of a trout park? It serves a valid purpose and offers a different outdoor experience...The option of put & take w/o trout park crowds for one thing..

MDC stocks em, people go fishing, take em home & eat them...Folks who keep fish pay for there license, trout stamp, & 1/8 cent sales tax too...Usually fish the blue ribbons, but I venture to the reds & whites occassionally...Usually catch trout there too. Its just stocked trout fishing after all is said & done. Cheers.

[jdmidwest]

All of the trout in MO are essentially Put and Take, they would not survive long without MDC adding them to the stream during the year in most areas. Even the catch and release stream and ponds at Montauk require a monthly stock to keep fish in them due to fishing mortality. The smaller the river, the stricter the rules to ensure a quality fishing experience. There are areas to suit all fishing styles and methods so nobody is left out.

I like catching trout and really don't have a problem with the current system. If the white ribbon portions were done away with and nature was allowed to resume its course, I would still be able to enjoy the areas and catch native fish.

It is my understanding that trout hatcheries are at max production and the possibilities of making a new hatchery is not possible. No cold water source to supply them. So, we have what we have unless demand for trout falls or we increase production.

[Outside Bend]

I feel that some of the "White Ribbon" streams are capable of supporting a small number of resident, spawning trout even though everyone writes them off as dumps.

The other areas are wild enough that they could support a trout marginally...

Would these small, marginal, wild trout fisheries be able to support similar levels of harvest and use as the trout parks and White Ribbon areas?

The white ribbon areas serve a purpose- provide folks a stream to catch trout, and potentially take a few home, without having the level of use you see at the trout parks. It's just another tool in the state's trout management toolbox to maximize limited coldwater resources for the largest number of anglers.

Some of the habitat on the streams is ideal spawning habitat from a non-biologist perspective and I would like to see some fish with parr marks in the creeks.

I'm not sure what this means. Spawning habitat is pretty easy to quantify- either there's enough of it for a population to sustain itself or there's not. Either there's enough to produce enough fish for a quality fishery or their isn't. I see no problem with MDC writing off streams as poor wild trout water if they really won't support decent populations of wild trout.

The White River System was a Premium Smallmouth stream till the river was dammed and the water temps were lowered. It was at that point the introduction of Non Native trout became the prime species on that system.

Eleven Point River was a prime Smallmouth Stream till the Rainbow trout was introduced. Both compete for the same food source and the Rainbow Trout has the advantage by the unnatural selection of the MDC dumping an overwhelming amount of them in the stream every month by boat and truck.

I guess I've never really understood this argument- it just doesn't seem to mesh with reality. The Eleven Point has about 20 miles of trout water and a little more than 30 miles of smallmouth/coolwater water. On the whole the state has about 120 miles of trout streams, compared to thousands of miles of smallmouth streams- seems to me the trout aren't really overrunning the place. Catch rates and length distributions are pretty similiar between the 11pt and other Ozark smallie streams, including streams that have no trout. Qualitatively, you can fish the 11 pt, North Fork, Current, Meramec, and Niangua and have some pretty excellent days catching a mix of smallmouth AND trout. And yes, MDC stocks about 5000 trout in the 11 pt- my guess is the resident smallies produce far more than 5000 offspring in a year.

Just as trout haven't overrun Table Rock even though Roaring River dumps in, and just as Taneycomo and Bull Shoals have trout fisheries at one end and cool/warmwater fisheries at the other, temperature plays an enormous role, just as was pointed out in the White River analogy. I'm sure there have been some negative impacts associated with stocking rainbows- but it seems likely that trout only replaced smallmouth in habitat where smallmouth populations don't do too well in the first place- namely due to water temperatures. We're not talking about the wholesale replacement of a non-native species with an endemic, we're talking about introducing a species which will utilize an available niche.

I'm not a big fan of the trout hatcheries or the fish they produce. While I think it'd be noble to go wild trout only, it's just not practical in a state where there's so much interest in trout and so few streams in which trout can naturally reproduce. Our streams, managed as wild-trout fisheries, just couldn't handle the angling pressure. Not to mention that Taneycomo would go tits-up pretty much immediately.

Not to derail the thread but Drew- I can't understand how on the one hand you're willing to allow replacement of smallies by non-native spotted bass, but on the other want to end stocking because non-native trout compete with other fish...?

[drew03cmc]

Would these small, marginal, wild trout fisheries be able to support similar levels of harvest and use as the trout parks and White Ribbon areas?

The white ribbon areas serve a purpose- provide folks a stream to catch trout, and potentially take a few home, without having the level of use you see at the trout parks. It's just another tool in the state's trout management toolbox to maximize limited coldwater resources for the largest number of anglers.

I'm not sure what this means. Spawning habitat is pretty easy to quantify- either there's enough of it for a population to sustain itself or there's not. Either there's enough to produce enough fish for a quality fishery or their isn't. I see no problem with MDC writing off streams as poor wild trout water if they really won't support decent populations of wild trout.

I guess I've never really understood this argument- it just doesn't seem to mesh with reality. The Eleven Point has about 20 miles of trout water and a little more than 30 miles of smallmouth/coolwater water. On the whole the state has about 120 miles of trout streams, compared to thousands of miles of smallmouth streams- seems to me the trout aren't really overrunning the place. Catch rates and length distributions are pretty similiar between the 11pt and other Ozark smallie streams, including streams that have no trout. Qualitatively, you can fish the 11 pt, North Fork, Current, Meramec, and Niangua and have some pretty excellent days catching a mix of smallmouth AND trout. And yes, MDC stocks about 5000 trout in the 11 pt- my guess is the resident smallies produce far more than 5000 offspring in a year.

Just as trout haven't overrun Table Rock even though Roaring River dumps in, and just as Taneycomo and Bull Shoals have trout fisheries at one end and cool/warmwater fisheries at the other, temperature plays an enormous role, just as was pointed out in the White River analogy. I'm sure there have been some negative impacts associated with stocking rainbows- but it seems likely that trout only replaced smallmouth in habitat where smallmouth populations don't do too well in the first place- namely due to water temperatures. We're not talking about the wholesale replacement of a non-native species with an endemic, we're talking about introducing a species which will utilize an available niche.

I'm not a big fan of the trout hatcheries or the fish they produce. While I think it'd be noble to go wild trout only, it's just not practical in a state where there's so much interest in trout and so few streams in which trout can naturally reproduce. Our streams, managed as wild-trout fisheries, just couldn't handle the angling pressure. Not to mention that Taneycomo would go tits-up pretty much immediately.

Not to derail the thread but Drew- I can't understand how on the one hand you're willing to allow replacement of smallies by non-native spotted bass, but on the other want to end stocking because non-native trout compete with other fish...?

Are you honestly asking ME this question? Look at the native range of spotted bass. It INCLUDES the Ozarks, but most people on here think that spotted bass have been placed there. I am not proposing we sit idly by and let spotted bass replace the smallmouth bass in streams that have good spot habitat, but come over the SW MO and SE KS, fish a couple drainages and look at the balance of smallmouth, spotted and largemouth bass. They are all present in good numbers. Non-native trout push smallmouth out of their native habitat, not to mention walleye and what not, but obviously, being a trout supporter is more noble than wanting to see native species in their native waters. Smallmouth BELONG in Ozark streams, trout DO NOT. If the trout are self-sustaining, a la Crane, Mill, Spring, Upper Little Piney, etc, I see no issue with them holding trout, but to stock trout and essentially throw the state's money down the drain rather than spending it conserving native species is a bad deal. If the state were to pledge half of the trout funds on smallmouth conservation, we might see something better than what the last White Paper said about many streams that deserve SMAs. The reason the state is so gung-ho about trout "conservation" is that it is a cash cow for them. They make $7 from every trout angler that wants to keep trout, plus, $3 a day in the trout parks, not to mention the out of state license sales at exorbitant fees. Add to that the sales of trout related tackle, baits, etc and you have a few million dollars that tells MDC to continue to waste money conserving an artificial fishery where it cannot sustain itself. Conservation of an artificial fishery is humorous. I am eagerly awaiting your response to this as I can already see that you are a trout supporter who would be happier wading an ankle deep stream catching non-native fish than to fish an Ozark spring creek teeming with hard fighting, beautifully marked smallmouth bass.

Your comment about 130 miles of trout water is a joke. That is all the state manages. You can catch trout elsewhere, but they are not advertised as being there. Smallmouth are NATIVE, that is why they have more miles of water to catch them in. If you cannot understand this, I cannot help you. Would you expect a native species to occupy the same amount of water that a non-native species occupies?