White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[FishinCricket]

Fishin Cricket - what the? Nice bass-on-stump, but whats with the red velvet curtain shrine surrounding it? Do you draw those curtains back only on special occasions? And you need to fire your interior decorator with that choice of wall paint and curtains.

Not my bass, not my curtains or my wall.. I'd call grandpa and tell him what you said, but he's dead. I'll replace the avatar soon..

And what's with your avatar anyway? Bert finally plunge over the edge and throttle Ernie to death in a lovers rage? lol

[Outside Bend]

Trout Program, Trout Stamp, Trout Parks, honestly?

As has been said repeatedly, those are the funding mechanisms for the trout program.

MDC employs far more biologists spend far more hours managing smallmouth and other native fisheries than they do managing trout.

MDC has as many warmwater hatcheries as trout hatcheries, the bulk of renovations have gone on at warmwater hatcheries, and the warmwater hatcheries produce vastly more fish.

MDC biologists spend far more time managing other fisheries than managing trout fisheries.

MDC builds boat ramps and fishing accesses on smallmouth streams.

MDC has established Smallmouth Management Areas on many streams.

MDC works with private owners to create stream revetments on smallmouth streams.

MDC has liberalized limits to reduce the effect of non-native spotted bass on smallmouth.

MDC developed the Stream Team program, which works to reduce litter as well as monitor water quality on many smallmouth streams.

MDC works with the NRCS and other government programs to help landowners mitigate the effects of livestock on many smallmouth streams.

MDC has funded numerous research efforts into smallmouth genetics, population characteristics, age and growth studies, habitat suitability and preference, the effect of landscape changes and resultant stream temperature changes on smallmouth bass populations, the distribution of smallmouth bass in thermally-influenced streams, the effects and rates of hybridization on smallmouth bass populations, prey availability in Ozark streams for smallmouth, the effects of SMA regulations on the smallmouth prey base and prey production, etc.

So precisely how has MDC been focusing on trout at the expense of smallmouth?

[Outside Bend]

Outside Bend, the look on your face says you have a pocket queens but that 8th rum and coke you just finished has gravely impaired what little poker skills you had to begin with and the box on your head screams "take my money".

Ah, you obviously haven't seen "Beerfest." Rent it this weekend- lots of quality, sophomoric humor

[Chief Grey Bear]

We've covered the spotted bass thing ad nauseum, so I'll only say, Chief, that if you lived on our side of the state and saw more than TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILES of ONE major river system go from 100% smallmouth (not including the largemouth, numbers of which have remained stable) to less than 50%, and in at least a third of those 300 miles less than 15%, smallmouth...AND those 250 miles had been some of the very best waters in the state for BIG smallmouth and are now filled with spotted bass of very mediocre size at best...and another 50 miles are likely to go the same way, and that has all happened in a period of 25 years...I suspect you MIGHT understand where we're coming from.

I never disputed that Al. Never have, although I take exception to some of your numbers. I would like to see any hard evidence you have on this. All I am saying is.....

The trout(Spotted bass) aren't going anywhere...they're here to stay, barring some unforeseen government meltdown. So I suggest you embrace them, study the angles, and go after them. They're a cool species to learn and fish for, especially if you go at it with the long stick...it really is gratifying, and I was a hold-out, too.

And there's not one waterway in the State of Missouri that's been taken over by trout. What's your point?

Nobody said they did. What's your point?

[eric1978]

The trout (spotted bass) aren't going anywhere...they're here to stay, barring some unforeseen government meltdown. So I suggest you embrace them, study the angles, and go after them. They're a cool species to learn and fish for, especially if you go at it with the long stick...it really is gratifying, and I was a hold-out, too.

Yeah, unfortunately they're probably here to stay. But in the streams they've invaded, they pretty much stay smaller than 12 inches or so, with a rare bigger one here and there, and they're not all that much fun to catch, considering they've taken the place of smallmouth that can reach more than 20 inches. I know you're trying hard with the spot/trout analogy, but it doesn't really work.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Oh heck they are a blast to catch. They fight every bit as hard as any smallmouth. And without the use of the current. I don't see why they won't easily get into the 15-18 inch range. With all that food you say is out there, sounds like there is plenty to go around for everyone. And the trout/spot analogy, it works perfectly and that is what bugs you guy's. I bet you wish you wouldn't have given me that little tidbit!

[drew03cmc]

Since this thread has passed its yawn threshold, lets talk about Avatars:

Ozark Trout Fisher, you need a new one. Nice size fish though it may be, it just could be the most silvery, pale, unhealthy looking trout park fish this side of Bennett Springs.

Outside Bend, the look on your face says you have a pocket queens but that 8th rum and coke you just finished has gravely impaired what little poker skills you had to begin with and the box on your head screams "take my money".

Fishin Cricket - what the? Nice bass-on-stump, but whats with the red velvet curtain shrine surrounding it? Do you draw those curtains back only on special occasions? And you need to fire your interior decorator with that choice of wall paint and curtains.

Drew03cmc - no self-respecting fisherman ever poses with a goggle-eye, which may explain the hoody and dark shades.

Dude, it's my first and only shadow bass and one of the prettiest fish I had ever caught. As for the jacket and shades, it was cold and rainy that day, hence the jacket, but I guess the shades were overkill. I understand your sentiment though

As has been said repeatedly, those are the funding mechanisms for the trout program.

MDC employs far more biologists spend far more hours managing smallmouth and other native fisheries than they do managing trout. Really? Proof please?

MDC has as many warmwater hatcheries as trout hatcheries, the bulk of renovations have gone on at warmwater hatcheries, and the warmwater hatcheries produce vastly more fish. How many hold smallmouth to restock native streams where they have failed? The answer is none. Why is this? How many hatcheries in Missouri hold silver bullets?

MDC biologists spend far more time managing other fisheries than managing trout fisheries. Proof?

MDC builds boat ramps and fishing accesses on smallmouth streams. They also do this on trout streams, carp streams and catfish streams? Does that make it special?

MDC has established Smallmouth Management Areas on many streams. They have also declined others because of other trivial reasons. The Niangua and Little Niangua were declined because of the Niangua Darter. Does anyone harvest darters? Shoal Creek was declined because of slow growth rates, where if the biologists involved had done their research they would have seen that the Neosho smallmouth does not grow as fast or as large as the northern strain. So, please show me again how they have established SMAs in a manner according with conservation needs. They also determined several streams to be unworthy from a cursory glance at the stream, yet Big Buffalo Creek has C&R regulations on it for smallmouth. I cannot understand this.

MDC works with private owners to create stream revetments on smallmouth streams. They also do this on other streams in the state. They have bought access to the streambanks of the Little Blue River up here for about 17 miles.

MDC has liberalized limits to reduce the effect of non-native spotted bass on smallmouth. How is this working for you?

MDC developed the Stream Team program, which works to reduce litter as well as monitor water quality on many smallmouth streams. This is also in place to preserve our streams which do not hold smallmouth.

MDC works with the NRCS and other government programs to help landowners mitigate the effects of livestock on many smallmouth streams. Again, any stream which has had its banks trampled by livestock can have this done. It does not have to be smallmouth related.

MDC has funded numerous research efforts into smallmouth genetics, population characteristics, age and growth studies, habitat suitability and preference, the effect of landscape changes and resultant stream temperature changes on smallmouth bass populations, the distribution of smallmouth bass in thermally-influenced streams, the effects and rates of hybridization on smallmouth bass populations, prey availability in Ozark streams for smallmouth, the effects of SMA regulations on the smallmouth prey base and prey production, etc. Again, proof please? I want to see the published research for my own benefit.

So precisely how has MDC been focusing on trout at the expense of smallmouth?

See above.

[ozark trout fisher]

Since this thread has passed its yawn threshold, lets talk about Avatars:

Ozark Trout Fisher, you need a new one. Nice size fish though it may be, it just could be the most silvery, pale, unhealthy looking trout park fish this side of Bennett Springs.

Nope, it's worse than that. It's a genuine, urban trout program Busch Wildlife trout.

[eric1978]

I don't see why they won't easily get into the 15-18 inch range.

They don't man, trust me. They don't. But the smallmouth that were there before they invaded would have, but now they're gone.

I don't know how to simplify the argument any more than this...

Trout are stocked in marginal smallmouth habitat. Non-native spots have taken over prime smallmouth habitat.

Trout generally eat food that smallmouth ignore. Spots eat exactly the same food that smallmouth eat.

Trout are biologically confined to relatively limited sections of streams. Spots will spread from delta to headwaters, stopping only where the trout are stocked, just like the smallmouth.

The analogy does not work. The two species you are trying to compare are simply too dissimilar. It would be like trying to make an argument against stocking trout in the Current based on studies of stripers in Table Rock. It's apples and oranges.

[Outside Bend]

Drew, you're making my point for me again. I understood your stipulation as MDC shouldn't be spending a disproportionate amount of money studying trout at the expense of smallmouth and other native fishes. I get that, and I agree with that.

Fisheries surveys don't take too long to do, a population estimate for a trout stream taking 3-4 days at the most. Data entry takes maybe a day. So it may take a week for a biologist to go from sampling a trout stream to completing the population survey. Most regions would have their trout field monitoring completed in a month, leaving another 11 months of the year to allocate towards other projects. The Southwest region would have to spend a little more time, but still- the bulk of the calendar year would be spent working on other projects.

And you're right, MDC doesn't produce smallmouth- because smallmouth don't need produced. They're self-sustaining in most streams, and there's relatively few streams which were once good smallmouth waters, where the fish died out, and which again have adequate habitat smallmouth populations. It's not the same situation as, say, paddlefish, in which 90+% of the spawning habitat is under impounded water. And if there were a situation where MDC needed to repopulate a smallmout stream, there are plenty of wild smallmouth populations in the Ozarks from which to re-stock.

I've become pretty bored spoon-feeding data folks data on here- believe it or not, I have better things to do. You have Google Scholar available to you (www.scholar.google.com), but you can plug in names like CF Rabeni, RJ DiStefano, M Roell, J Koppelman, A Allert, C Riggert, V Travnichek, and find a pile of peer-reviewed literature funded by MDC which these folks put out. Better yet, you can pick up the phone and call these guys, and ask them what they do for a living. Tour Blind Pony or Lost Valley hatcheries, or even Neosho, and see the changes that have been made to produce native species like paddlefish and sturgeon. Even Shepherd of the Hills is now in the game of artificially propagating trout AS WELL as Eastern and Ozark hellbenders, and native freshwater mussels.

The point is, you want to say trout take money from native fish programs, but there's no evidence for that. You want to say trout take the spotlight off smallmouth, and I'd be willing to concede that to a point. But there are A TON of programs MDC's involved in which benefit not only smallmouth, but other native species. Boat ramps. Habitat restoration. Research. Water quality monitoring. Just because you don't agree with SMA's doesn't mean the state isn't doing something to protect smallmouth. Just because you don't agree with liberalized spot creels doesn't mean the state isn't doing something to protect smallmouth. You even mentioned the Niangua darter as a reason MDC didn't install an SMA on the Niangua and Little Niangua- to me that's valid, it's a hard sell managing a predatory sport fishery on top of a federally threatened species.

I guess to me, the idea that MDC is focusing on trout at the expense of other, native species is just a farce. Trout are funded through trout sales, everything else gets funded through sales tax and other license sales. It's one of the best models in the nation, and MDC is able to balance the needs of sportfish and non-game species far better than most fish and game agencies in the US. And for all their faults, they produce a ton of high-caliber work.

Chief-

Perhaps the OA float trips ought to oscillate between eastern and western parts of the state. You could have an informal little black bass tourney on the last day a la the All-Star Games, and whoever wins gets home-field advantage for the next trip I'd love to make it this fall, but will be out of town. In all seriousness though- just as you can take OA members to unknown trout streams and gorgeous Neosho waters, there's folks on this forum who can take you places where you would've caught a fair number of quality smallies 20 years ago, but which now only large numbers of spots under twelve inches. It may not make sense to you, but go fish the streams and it'll be obvious.

Folks like Al and Eric aren't overblowing that issue. Otters, and maybe even giggers, on the other hand...

And no, it's still a bad analogy, even if you believe otherwise. Even in the worst-case scenario, trout have only evicted smallmouth from somewhere between 120-300 miles of stream, whereas spots have evicted smallies from a much larger area. And again, smallies and trout don't interbreed, or breed during the same time of year, or share the same prey base for most of their lives, or share the same habitat for most of their lives.