How The Natural World Vanishes...

[Chief Grey Bear]

I will agree there are a lot of variables to the question.

And I am not sure a definitive answer will ever be achieved.

A couple of points though. Most if not all tie float and log floats happened in East/Southeast Missouri. As that is where the tie companies were located. Few if any occured in South/Southwest Missouri.

And with that, most of the guide trips that we read about happened in South/Southwest Missouri. On such waters as the James, White, Kings and also some north flowing rivers headed for the mighty Mo.

But it is also a notable point about the depression. But you know, I have had a lot of conversations with many of the old timers that lived in that era, as I am sure you have too, and I really don't recall them talking about keeping large amounts of fish. I know that they kept their share. But you always hear about the hog butchering in the fall, hunting, and fattening a calf. I am not really sure how important a roll fish played in their diet. That would be some interesting research though.

But you are right, I think the 1950's and beyond had a definite effect on the rivers as far as fishing. Resovoirs became very important in changing the landscape in not only their creation but also the fishing would be created. And just maybe we can credit the crappie and white bass for some of that.

[Al Agnew]

Actually, guided floats were being run on Current River before they got popular on the White and James. The eastern streams saw plenty of guided float trips, especially the Meramec, Current, and Black rivers. Records are a little harder to come by on these streams; Jim Owen did so much more to publicize his White River operation, so that's normally what you read about. But there were quite a few records of Current River floats, and it seems that there were more "fishing clubs" whose members kept records of their trips over on the Current. The Meramec and Black have the least records that I've been able to find.

Larry Dablemont chronicles some of these records in his book, "Rivers to Run". The Carter County Fishing and Shooting Club, formed in 1888, has records of a trip by the four founders in Sept. 1892, in which they caught 452 fish in 2 1/2 days, stating the average of 16 1/2 fish per man was "the best on record". Dablemont believes this counted only the fish they kept, since on another trip a few days earlier they recorded 21 bass with the smallest 2 3/4 pounds. In 1907 they recorded 175 bass on a week long trip "with ten grandpa's weighing three pounds each" and the largest taken from the river in the last four years, a smallmouth that weighed four pounds seven ounces. In 1946 the Conservationist magazine analyzed the reports of the club and stated, "From 1891 to 1900 the average good day of fishing on the Current yielded 13.5 fish. From 1901 to 1910 the average dropped 45% to 7.3 fish per day. From 1911 to 1920 that average rose again...8.8 fish per day. From 1920 to 1930, the average dropped drastically to 5.9 fish per day."

You're right that we don't hear much about log and tie rafting on the James and White, let alone any of the other SW MO streams. But there was obviously a lot of logging that went on in that area as well, and I'd bet there was a lot of moving logs to the nearest railroad, just not the huge rafts that we know about in the eastern MO streams. I do know there was a LOT of tie rafting on the Big Piney and Gasconade.

[Chief Grey Bear]

We really need a campfire for this conversation!

For sure floating started in the east. I think in fact, if I remember my history, the jon boats actually came from the Current. Long before Charlie was credited with making them.

I knew the Meramec was popular near the St. Louis area but I have never heard about the Black.

I have read that passage by Larry many times. In fact I love this one from a 1893 Jack's Fork trip: "Tipped over twice on snags. No fault of any except Fairbanks and Culley who were never too good as lookouts. Lost one rifle, two shotguns, fishing tackle, six gallons of whiskey. We will go home tomorrow as we are out of whiskey."

Now in that passage you quoted in regard to the 452 fish trip, I believe it was all fish caught not just the one kept. Where would they have stored that many fish??? I wish he would have put forth a little more info on the trips!!! But he is like that. Kinda like when he beats the hell out of the MDC on some issues, "has his big high powered meetings" with the director in Jeff City but won't say what he found out. If he did, it would deflate his cause. Notice how he finally shut up on the issue of the western Missouri judge.

Anyway that is not the discussion here. There were some log/tie floats down the White from Branson to as far as Cotter. But I don't think there were many. I think the floats lasted a short period of time. And really, the White was about the only waterway over here that I think would have been capable of this. At least not for the large rafts that were common in the eastern part of the state.

But yeah, there was a lot of logging happening in SWMO. Reeds Spring was the largest supplier of White Oak ties in the US from 1910 to 1925. But it is atop one of the "mountains" here and thus all ties were brought in by wagon and shipped out on rail.

[drew03cmc]

I am fascinated by this discussion. I cannot contribute beyond this as my knowledge of history in that area is limited.

[Outside Bend]

Not sure how common it was, but from my own family history drifting trammel nets on the Black River during the Depression and keeping whatever fish you caught was regular practice. A lot of those folks were miners before they were farmers, and only kept a few pigs, chickens, or cattle, along with a small truck garden for family use. Most of the deer were long gone, and wild turkeys were trapped and shipped to St. Louis markets, so fish and small game were about the only viable wild protein source available.

I think we need to understand the Ozark landscape is dynamic, and it's still changing. The development and expansion of roads has brought more people to the area- places like Nixa are some of the fastest growing in the nation, and other Ozark towns have also grown dramatically in the last several decades. Large farms are subdivided into 5 or 10 acre ranchettes, or sold whole to wealthy surburban or out-of-state absentee landowners. In some places the effects of agriculture have been reduced, in others they've just been replaced by nutrient inputs from lawns, golf courses, and septic systems. The expanding human population and their water needs deplete the regional aquifier, the increase of impermeable surfaces increases runoff to streams, people's innate desire to screw with the natural course of a stream leads to more erosion, deeper incision of the stream channel, and less fish habitat. Mining activities- gravel, lead, you name it- have profound impacts.

On a more natural note, natural events like ice and wind storms are changing the age and species structure of our forests, as are human management decisions. Chestnuts and chinkapins are mostly gone, American elm is mostly gone, butternut is rapidly heading that way, and oaks, black walnut, and various ash species could all be severely reduced by gypsy moths, cankars, and ash borers in the future.

It's not a static system, and the choices we make today still impact the landscape just as the decisions our parents and grandparents made.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Hey, you guy's ain't done are ya???? I was really enjoying this one.

[Al Agnew]

I don't know how many other people on here have been fishing the rivers as long as I have (fairly seriously since about 1967 or so) but surely some others have been fishing them for a few decades, and I'd like to hear how they think the fishing has changed during that time period on their streams.

[ness]

I am fascinated by this discussion. I cannot contribute beyond this as my knowledge of history in that area is limited.

What he said.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I don't know how many other people on here have been fishing the rivers as long as I have (fairly seriously since about 1967 or so) but surely some others have been fishing them for a few decades, and I'd like to hear how they think the fishing has changed during that time period on their streams.

I have noticed some major changes since I was a kid in the 70's. I may not have been a serious fisherman but, I spent a major amount of my childhood, and now adulthood, on the rivers and creeks. And in that early time with my father, every shallow water area was practically littered with the shedded exoskeleton of the crawdad. Now it can be somewhat difficult to find one at all. I am so glad that I was able to show my son and daughter the the process of a crawdad shedding it's hard outer skin and becoming very soft and immobile.

I have also noticed there are not anywhere near the amount of minnows that there used to be. You used to be able to scoop them up by the bucket full. Literally. And now, even though it appears that we still have a large population of minnows, I wouldn't be afraid to say it is not a 1/3 of what it was.

I haven't been frogging in years. Used too it wouldn't take but maybe an hour or two to get a limit of frogs. Now you may have to go for a week to get a one night limit. And the ones you do find are not near as big as they were years ago. When we ate frogs, the legs were with out a doubt as big as a chicken drumstick. Not so anymore. Sure you will occasionally find one but, it is rare. I don't think it is the frogs are not producing, I think it is the tadpoles not completing the cycle to adulthood. That is if the eggs do experience a successfull hatch.

Grasshoppers? We used to go out at night with a light and pluck them off of fences along dirt roads. In 15 minutes we had a mayo jar stuffed. But not so much anymore. It seems like now I search for an hour for just a couple dozen. If that.

Leeches. Dad and I used to head out after and hit some mud flats on Spring River and in just a couple of hours we could have bucket full of leeches. Not the blood sucking kind but, the other kind that could stretch out many times their length. Great catfish bait. I still see one every now and then but, it is pretty rare.

Hellgrammites. I used to find these under every rock in the creek. Now you have to look pretty hard to find one. I never did like to fish with them, so I would just play with them for a bit and let them go.

Mussels it seems are very rare to find. Especially the larger ones. I remember when the rivers were full of them. I used to use them for bait all the time. Now I still find one a live occasionally. And it is a treat to do so.

Now, what does this have to do with how I think the fishing was 40 years ago as compared to today? Every species I mentioned, except the mussel, is forage for bass. And with a decrease in forage, I would think we would have to experience a drecrease in numbers of not only bass but, other species of fish that also compete for this food supply.

I took this question to my father this weekend, who has been running and fishing these same waters that he taught me to fish and respect and now I am teaching my son the same, for 70 years and he said the fishing today is nothing like it was. And he points to the same reasons I listed above. Even though I had realized these changes in our environment, it wasn't until we were discussing it that I began to see just how much it had changed right in front of me.

He points to the wide spread and unregulated use of fertilizers and pesticides. I agree with that and add the boom in septic tanks that now dot the country side and the huge increase in livestock production including beef, dariy, turkeys, chickens and hogs. And increased crop prduction. All of this at some point runs into the waterways. And that has had a devastating effect on the ecology.

[Gary Lange]

Very interesting discussion for sure. I agree with what the Chief just posted that some of the problems related to lower populations of Bass and other species could possibly be traced back to the time more of the runoff and pollution started hitting the rivers, streams and creeks. I would not be surprised at all that the loss in larger populations of crawfish and minnows has affected both growth and numbers of Bass populations. Since I am not from around here I have no knowledge of the area. It would be nice to gather a group of old timers that did a lot of fishing in the Rivers, Streams and Creeks long before any of us even thought about it and pick there brains for information. Some of the old timers have passed on taking with them the stories about what we seek. Great discussion keep it going.