Ticketed For Paddlefish Out Of Season

[Tim Smith]

Sorry there Tim, did not know what you were fishing for exactly on the other thread. A quick search of the MDC website brings up the seasons for snagging, bow fishing, and atlatls methods of fishing. Since I have not pursued rough fish in 30 some years other than pole and line, I was not up on the regs. Here is a link.

MO Non Game Fishing Regs

Thanks for the link, JD. I probably should have hunted it down myself.

There is indeed a non-game (not specifically gar, but it includes them) season for snagging.

I'd still like to see Plex's view on the post above. It would have been better to move once you were on the paddlefish (and you might fare better when and if you go to court, if you acknowledge that).

[Wayne SW/MO]

I think this season was primarily for Redhorse suckers which make a spring run. You don't see as much of it now because numbers are down. I suspect that numbers are down due to the fact that gigging methods have become so deadly. You just don't see big Redhorse anymore.

[Justin Spencer]

Bottom line from my perspective (which obviously can be disputed) is that plex had every bit the right to snag and catch a paddlefish as long as it was immediately released. If he did anything wrong (legally) is was that he took time to take a picture. The laws need to be written more clearly or seasons changed, as people will always violate the "spirit of the law" if they can get away with it.

No one can seem to tell me how this case differs from a smallmouth fisherman catching a bass out of season (which could kill the fish) and then taking a picture of it. What is the spirit of the law here, to keep people from interuppting the spawning of bass in a fragile stream ecosystem, or to just make sure they are put back after you catch them this time of year.

I have never snagged for paddlefish or gar, and don't plan to, and I normally back MDC on the upholding of regulations, but in this case I think they wrote this ticket trying to uphold the "spirit of the law" which in this case doesn't hold up to the written law, which specifically lists gar in the species that can be grabbed and doesn't say, if you grab a paddlefish you have to move.

If the ticket is for taking a picture then fine, but if it for taking or attempting to take paddlefish out of season plexglove should get off no problem, he didn't know he was being watched and he released them all (taking is not a clear term, does it mean catching or taking home?). In a court of law we have to go by the facts, not on what we think he might have been doing because like Eric said, only plex can know that.

And no Eric I wasn't talking about Shoal Creek, I was just talking in general that you and most others who were wrongly accused (myself included) would fight it in court, and if plex was doing what he was saying he should too.

[Tim Smith]

Bottom line from my perspective (which obviously can be disputed) is that plex had every bit the right to snag and catch a paddlefish as long as it was immediately released. If he did anything wrong (legally) is was that he took time to take a picture. The laws need to be written more clearly or seasons changed, as people will always violate the "spirit of the law" if they can get away with it.

I agree mostly with what you say here, Justin. I would add that it's up to all of us to pick up our end of this. Overall, successful resource management doesn't depend on what's legal. It really is about doing the right thing and the "spirit of the law". There aren't enough COs, bikini clad or otherwise to keep the resource intact if the standard we set is what we can get away with. If you know better, do better.

[FishinCricket]

I agree mostly with what you say here, Justin. I would add that it's up to all of us to pick up our end of this. Overall, successful resource management doesn't depend on what's legal. It really is about doing the right thing and the "spirit of the law". There aren't enough COs, bikini clad or otherwise to keep the resource intact if the standard we set is what we can get away with. If you know better, do better.

So no pictures of bass that we catch and release out of season?

[Al Agnew]

I've thought about this a lot, and I have to agree that there is really little difference between catching and releasing bass out of season and snagging paddlefish out of season. Yes, the paddlefish probably require more protection than stream bass, and yes, snagging a paddlefish might be more harmful to the fish than catching a bass on average. But unless there is a specific law differentiating the two, it's really pretty much the same thing. The solution is not to give out tickets to people who think they are operating within the rules, but to change the rules so you don't have to. Either close areas like this to snagging, period, or make all the snagging seasons run at the same time.

[eric1978]

I guess you guys swayed me. The rules do seem pretty ambiguous. If I was given a ticket for taking a pic of a smallmouth I caught in April, I'd be fuming, so I guess that argument works. Not sure it would work in court, but it does make sense here among fishermen. I still think the whole thing could have been prevented by moving on after the third spoonbill was snagged, and I agree with Tim about the "spirit of the law," but the regulations just aren't clear enough in plain words to go handing out tickets for what plex did, since snagging gar is legal right now and there's no way for the CO to prove he was intentionally snagging 'bills.

[Wayne SW/MO]

The bottom line is that in comes down to the opinion of the agent and unless it's challenged it will be upheld by a county judge. The bad thing is that a rule that reside in a gray area can go either way in the courtroom.

In the long run it always seems to me that the judges tend side with the public when it comes to wildlife laws. On the other side that tendency is more often then not a negative outcome for the outdoorsman who wants wildlife well protected.

[plexlove]

If what JD said in the other thread is true (and he's generally pretty good with facts when they're not associated with politics), there isn't a gar snagging season and there's more than just a paddlefish by-catch issue on the table here.

Plex, you might be able shed this ticket, but it got issued because you weren't respecting the spirit of the law. There isn't a "gar snagging season" as far as the law is concerned. There's just a run-up to paddlefish season. Just because you put a steel leader on your snagging gear, doesn't mean you're targeting gar. You were out there to rip into whatever was interesting to snag and as your posts demonstrate you were plenty happy it was paddlefish.

Once it was clear you were on the paddlefish, the responsible thing to do was to move down the bank and lay off the paddlefish....and you didn't. I can just about guarantee that the CO decided you were jumping the paddlefish season. Four was enough to show you were on a paddlefish concentration and you weren't making any attempts to avoid them. You didn't move. You didn't adjust. You just kept hammering the spoonbills.

The snagging season exists to give the fish some periods of time to spawn with low stress when they aren't being harrassed. Those long fights build up lactic acid and can kill the fish with latent stress. You won't see it because it takes a few days, but yes it can kill them. Angling stress also causes the fish to pull lipids out of their egg masses and results in larvae with poorer condition and lower survival in the year class. If the stress is great enough they can even abandon the spawn altogther. There may not be much natural reproduction in Missouri right now, but it doesn't make much sense to batter the little bit that's there even further. Paddlefish are in trouble, partially because they can't migrate upstream at dams like the one where you were snagging them.

Even if you are legally right, you were ethically wrong. It would be nice to see you admit that you should have backed off that spot and found another spot to fish. If people would do that kind of stuff on their own, we wouldn't have a tenth of the laws we have now.

Well you might wanna go back and actually read my other posts before running off at the mouth about my ethics! Idk why people keep saying I should have moved...Has anyone ever been down there? Not much room to move! have about a 40ft span of ground and a darn to the right and tree to the left, plus the 10 to 15 people i have to share it with....SO, like i said before, I did change my casts, I caught my first two under the darn, then started casting in the shallows going downstream, caught them there too...so YES I did change where I fished as much as possible!

And you seem pretty educated on paddlefish but obviously know nothing about seasons...THERE IS A GAR SEASON, it is labeled as "non game fish" and you are allowed to snag them until the 15th of May, which is today, so no i will no longer be out snagging....even though i did go last night, got 6 more spoonbill, 1 turtle, and a GAR!

And yes, anything that got in my way i am obviously going to pull in...what am i supposed to do? See its a paddlefish and cut my line? And I dont want to here ethics come into play with fishing again... Fishing is one of the most unethical sports imaginable if you think about it. We go out and slam hooks throw fish then tug them all the way in brutally to rip a hook outta them and either stick a rope through them so we can eat them later or toss em back in.

What at all seems ethical about torturing an animal repeatedly for our own bragging rights?

Fact is, fishing is fun, its food, and humans do it and will continue to do it, but you can not bring ethics into this unless it was an extreme situation...like someone catching them and then tossin them on bank to die!

If they were so worried about the survival of this species of fish then they would have a stricter limit on them in season! how about 2fish per person PERIOD, not per day! Thats just ridiculous, who in the world is going to eat3 or 400 pounds of fish!

[plexlove]

Ok, so I have spoken with a lawyer and my best friends dad who is a judge (in another state), this is what I have been told.

1. The agent hiding in the woods is not legal evidence in the court room, that agent was doing what is called "entrapment" You can not hide out unknowingly and wait for people to mess up. I was told, they usually get away with this because they will lie and say they were just walking through the woods when they "noticed" illegal activity. Also, being that that agent did not come down and state anything on record, then according to the law, no other officer can ticket me, only the witnessing officer...that goes for Conservation and Police

2. Take/attempt to take, means "take home" not "catch" and being that i did not attempt or have them on a stringer, or bring them anywhere near a vehicle, the ticket is for the wrong thing! (just because of the wrong wording on the ticket my charges will be dropped)

3. It doesnt matter what I catch, how many of them I catch, if I move or not, or what the agent "thinks" i am doing, I cannot be ticketed as long as I "claim" I am snagging for gar in season. The Judge told me I could have pulled 100 of those things out right in front of the agent and not caught one gar and he would still throw that ticket out...He said, from his experience dealing with conservation agents, is that they are just Country boy cops with a power trip and they like to harass people!

So,my ticket will be thrown out fast, and I also spoke with them about the other guy who got ticketed. My lawyer is gonna find out who he is and we are going to contact him and get his taken care of, and in his case he can turn around and sue the conservation dept. Giving him a ticket was 190% illegal according to EVERYONE i have spoke with. He did NOT snag the fish, he did NOT touch the fish, so he has NO liability in this....I told the agent that but he said too late, his partner already ticketed him!

And people wonder why people dont have respect for cops and other authority figures....it is situations like this, where they use their power to hurt others for no reason! And you can claim all day long that he was doing this in the "spirit of the law" but we all know that is bs. They just wanted to ticket some poeple so it looked like they were doing their jobs.... Just like last night when they came and harassed the mexicans fishing, had their hand behind their heads and all, they did nothing wrong!

Also, someone wrote, if I were really innocent then why wouldnt I fight it? Well because this country doesnt run on innocent and guilty anymore. I have witnessed 100 crimes go unpunished in my life and 100 innocent people be punished for not doing anything. Just because you are innocent does not mean you will be set free! I know a girl about 3 years ago who was downtown and the car parked next to hers left their keys on the roof of the car, so she grabbed them and opened the door and put them in the glove box, she then got back in her car to write a note to tell the people when a cop came up and told her to exit the car, she asked why and he pulled his gun....needless to say he was a real winner...She got charged with tampering, and attempted auto theft. She even got a lawyer and could not get out of it, her first offense ever, she did 3 months in jail and 2 years probation and a $1000 fine. Doesnt really seem fair huh? Cop lied and said there were no keys on the car, that he watched her jimmy the lock to get in then watched her search for the keys when she spotted him she got back in her car...even the people who owned the car said they left the keys there. Didnt matter, judge didnt believe her!

So, that is why I dont always fight something just because i am innocent....plus, i dont start a fight i know i wont win!