Copying fly patterns...

[Phil Lilley]

This is a scud I tied this am... been trying to figure out how it was tied for some time. I woke up thinking about how it was tied and I think I've figured it out.

I don't consider myself a good tier- I don't tie that much. But the key was the duck flank and marabou pulled over the back.

Vince and I tied last night over at his house, tying Brett's G-Bug and Soft Shelled Scuds. The G-Bug isn't that hard... marabou tail, slightly dubbed body and ostrich hurl body. Tied in small sizes this fly flat catches fish. But the soft shell had us baffled.

We did find out that if you dubbed a body with rabbit, squirrel or antron and then tied a long-fibered piece at the back and pulled it over the back, tying it off at the front, you could then wrap either wire or mono for ribbing and the ribbing wouldn't dissappear into the dubbing. Then pick out the fibers from the bottom or top- whatever your preference.

Anyhow, this morning I tried tying in some marabou, then fibers from a pheasant wing, then the ostrich herl. Dubbed the body, brought the marabou over, brought the pheasant over and then palmered the ostrich. I showed Vince via email and he thought I had it.

[Greg]

Phil that is an awesome looking fly. It looks like it would catch a lot of fish. I'm impressed.

Greg

[Thom]

I watched bret Rader with a couple of clients on the water two weeks ago when I was at TC. and observed his fishing methods like I do most of the good sportsman as I stood feet downstream from him. He was not walking in the water between his clients and was in fact behind them and to their left standing in about 6 inches of water tutoring them and talking to them. They were out in the stream below the crowd at outlet #1. No one catching many fish in the outlet but his clients were. He was not shuffling or walking back and forth between them. Believe me if I thought he was I would have expressed my displeasure looking him in the eye not blindsiding him on a forum.

His clients were novice clients and were catching fish. How do I know they were novices'? I saw them casting the fly rod and landing the fish. I didn't approach him or talk because he was with clients however I have encountered him on the stream often in his rig. I mostly fish from a boat because of my knees. Bret always waves and if he is stopped asks how you are doing and is very easy to talk to. I don't think he is lacking for business because he alway will give advice or whats working even what he is using. I have fished near him in the throphy water several times in the hot spots that I know. He never crowds you, swamps you with his boat or moves when you come by. Some do! I have never been near him without seeing his clients catch fish....often doubles.

Never tried his flys but I tie some that are very simular. The pink scud that is simular I have tied for years. It started as a mistake because I put the maribou on the wrong end so I just trimmed it short. When I used it and it worked it became a part of my scud box.

My last trip to taney I had my soft side tackle box stolen with most of my estimated 1000 flies and 15 boxes. so I may purchase some of the patterns that he ties until I get caught up with restocking..

[Snow Fly]

I have used Brett as a guide twice in the last three years. Mainly to learn how to be successful catching fish from a boat while they are running water. As usual they never ran any water, so it was wading all day. On these two trips, which included my two fishing buddies, we were very successful without any tactics being used by Brett to chum the waters. He personifies the spirit of a true sportsman and a person I would be more than happy to call a fishing partner.

I too have problems with the post from PKw. Heck why would I pay someone to chum the waters when I could do that myself for nothing. Sounds to me some people are jealous so they let their imagination take over.

I really wanted to leave this alone but could not let a persons name & business get slam dunked when I personally know otherwise.

[Phil Lilley]

After much consideration... and I really hate deleting posts... I'm going to remove the post in question. I don't like to edit what's said on this forum but when something is aledged about someone without improper identification and therefore merit, it shouldn't be allowed to stand whether it's true or false.

If everthing we've done is posted on a forum like this, whether know or unknown, we'd all be incredibly embarrased and ashamed... especially me!

[Rusty]

After much consideration... and I really hate deleting posts... I'm going to remove the post in question. I don't like to edit what's said on this forum but when something is aledged about someone without improper identification and therefore merit, it shouldn't be allowed to stand whether it's true or false.

If everthing we've done is posted on a forum like this, whether know or unknown, we'd all be incredibly embarrased and ashamed... especially me!

Not that my opinion means anything, but...good decision.

Russ

[Snow Fly]

I agree!

[Guest flyfishBDS]

Since I don't know any of the personalities involved I can stay well out of that.

At first this sounds a little horrifying, someone stealing someone else's work _ in my journo's days this would be called plagiarism.

The fly world its all a little different, as Ive come to learn. A lot is based historically, fly patterns were freely traded, written about in books, magazines, word of mouth etc etc etc. There is a tradition of tiers sharing their work, which becomes a little problem if your thinking of exclusively badging a fly to make money off it.

Indeed there are some who believe exclusivity is contrary to the spirit of fly fishing and flytying. We have customers coming in checking out new and old patterns often buying a couple to fish and a third as a pattern to tie it.

There is no such thing as copyright/trademarks etc on flies. The way major fly companies work is to trademark the fly tier's name/name of the fly. The actual pattern isn't protected at all. The tier gets a royalty for the use of the name.

Hence in the case of John Barr's Copper John, probably the most singularly popular pattern released in the last decade, you can see copies as Copper BObs etc etc. Barr has also written in mags about how to tie and fish the pattern, and others he has developed, for people to tie their own. Barr has no problems with people tying "his" flies, which is a good thing imagine having to pay royalties on your home tied flies _ ludicrous and unworkable.

Now in the fly shop game, I think I'd say imitation is the best form of flattery _ I'd be more pissed if they ignored it. For instance our series of Bryce's TDMs (which are a zebra midge variant) were in the flybins of a now defunct shop in our area. They had obviously had enough questions from customers to start making them. The TDMs have now been picked up by Spirit River (we couldn't keep up with demand) so they could be in EVERY fly shop in our area. To me great, its really an edorsement/promotion of Bryce Cadion, and the Store. We also put the fly and its tying instructions into the local newspaper this year to spread the word _ we are more than happy for people to know how to tie it, we are often giving free demos on how to get this pattern right _ its so easy its ridiculous. Yep we will sell you the right materials so you can tie your own (and lose money on foregone fly sales) but its part of the service/tradition.

For us to be stomping up and down that another fly shop was copying it would be a little petulant IMO. To take this to its logical conclusion would you not show a customer/client how tie your "secret pattern", keep it hidden away, make them sign a waiver that they would never tie it??? Ok Im being silly and I don't know if this was the intent of those originally complaining.

Cheers

Steve