Hoops to jump thru to be a fishing guide

[Phil Lilley]

I'm in the process of getting my OUPV license to guide in Alaska this summer. I went to St Louis today to hand in my application and other paperwork (listed below) in hopes to get approved to take the test by May. I was told it may be longer. So I'm regrouping a bit- checking my options.

Here's what it takes...

Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV) "6-pack"

1. Completed application with oath

2. Yes, on application explanations

3. Proof of Citizenship Social

4. Security Card

5. Finger print (Done at REC)

6. First Aid and CPR with in one year

7. Three character references

8. Physical exam with hearing and eye test

9. SAMSHA Drug test or enrollment in drug testing program

10. Certificate of Completion (with one year)

11. Sea Service forms (total at least 360 days)

Wanna become a guide? You simply apply by submitting a complete application, once approved make an appointment and take the five exams. Rules of the Road is the first exam and it is a closed book requiring 90% correct. The other four are open book and require a 70% correct for passage.

The tests are nothing short of HARD! Rules of the road cover lights, flags, ship movements in and out of channels... not just on bass boats but on freighters in major rivers.

Who is required to have a OUPV license? Anyone who guides on most Corp lakes in Missouri, including Table Rock, Taneycomo and Bull Shoals.

There are 2 types on OUPV licenses- local waters and inclusive. Inclusive means all inland waters and out to 100 miles off the coast. That's what I need.

Bill Babler is a Captain... is there anyone else?

[jjtroutbum]

Phil when you come to St. Louis your supposed to let a few of use know so we can buy you lunch sometime

JJ

[Guest flyfishBDS]

You could just wade LOL

I had wondered about the need for a 6-pack on Corp Lakes, was told last year during Arkansas Guide advisory committee meeting that it wasn't necessary?

I don't reckon too many would have it.

I know its a tough test have looked at it in the past. Then the lodge I was heading too said _ nah you don't need to take it, we'll cover you _ decided that wasn't a lodge I needed to work for LOL

Best of luck Steve

[taxidermist]

Good luck.

I was also told it only applies to NAVAGABLE waters, not including most corp controled impounded waters. White River chain was exempt, the lower White, Arkansas Mississippi and some impoundments around Hot Springs are nav.

My Ex-wife now lives in Alaska and has her license and did not go thru all that, she also did a Open Ocean nav, course. and a coastal nav course. It is the six pax lic. I do know her test part of it was open book.

I drove her to the test fac. The hard part is the time on board!! She did a lot of studying for it.

Yes, we still speak we just had different agendas in life.

[Phil Lilley]

Honestly I'm not clear which lakes require it and why. Most Missouri Corp lakes do I think. Arkansas not sure.

Definition of "Navigable Waters" would be nice. I'll have to research it... later today.

I do know that in this area the US Coast Guard does crack down on guides that don't have it and it's a stiff fine. They even did a sting operation a couple of years ago... that's why there are few guides that don't have the 6-pack license. Plus other guides don't like to see people guiding without it cause of the trouble they went thru to be legal. Insurance is another thing- most companies won't insurance a guide if he doesn't have it, when required.

tax- she took the local water test probably in Alaska. Jim took the same one last spring. And most of the tests are open book except the Rules of the Road which is the first test. You have to past that test before taking the other modules. The problem is the time limit on taking the test... if you don't know where to look in the book on a question, you could spend most of your time on just a handful of questions trying to look up the answer and not finish the test, so I'm told.

Babler will weigh in on the subject as soon as he finishes feeding his guests breakfast this morning. He has alot more knowledge on the subject.

But it's interesting to those who had no idea what a guides goes thru to be a guide.

I would have to say though the Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED training was fantastic- wish I had done it a long time, although I have not had the opportunity to use any of it. Everyone should take it.

[SilverMallard]

Phil, you're dead on regarding guidelines and requirements. Here's the jurisdiction issue in a nutshell:

1. The US Coast Guard requires this license on all waters under federal jurisdiction...period. The USCG asserts that this applies to all USACE-managed waters, lakes or rivers. And it applies to any fee charged for any activity involving the use of motorized watercraft.

2. But the USCG lacks the enforcement assets and resources to assert said jurisdiction that widely.

3. There is no such thing as an "exemption" for any USACE-managed waterway or resevoir. There are only places they historically CHOOSE not to enforce the law.

BUT HERE IS THE BIG PROBLEM:

Operating without this license is a federal crime...a C felony. And EVERY business liability insurance and property and casualty insurance policy in this country has a felonious acts or criminal acts exclusion for coverage. What that means is that ANY guide who charges clients and then puts them in a boat without the appropriate USCG license for his class of vessel, # of passengers, and operating waters HAS NO INSURANCE COVERAGE...even if he is paying for it. And the insurance industry has been winning these cases in court. And they are pressuring the USCG to charge their clients who file claims under their policies and do not have the license.

So, when you see a guide ad that says, "licensed and insured," and you're getting in a boat on a USACE-managed waterway or lake, you need to ask them WHICH license. The AR guide license is NOT enough for their insurance to pay in the event of injury or loss. And MO has no state guide license. Anyone who has the USCG OUPV (6-pack) license is authorized to use the title "Captain." Anyone who doesn't have a current 6-pack license is NOT authorized to use that title.

Only guides who wade fish or use canoes, driftboats, rafts, etc...NO MOTORS...do not need the license on The White River, Norfork tailwater, or any of the White River Chain of Lakes. Those waters are all USACE-managed and the USCG claims jurisdiction.

That's "where the rubber meets the road" exactly as it was explained to me by a few attorneys and the USCG officials in STL.

And for the guides out there who don't have it, look up the penalties for a class C felony conviction. Each passenger in your boat is a separate violation. So 2 passengers = 2 class C felonies.

[Patricks on the White]

Phil:

As you probably know, the guide requirements here in Arkansas are minimal to say the least, $25.00 and fill out a form. Theres talk of stiffer requirements which there should be; that would separate the "real McCoy" guides from the wannabe's. I got a license a few months ago mainly to be able to attend meetings and give me something to do one night a month. I'm not even a wannabe.

Patrick Brennan

P.S. I travelled to Flaming Gorge with 15 or so flyfishermen several years ago and met you on the trip. I might even have outfished you by a trout or two.

[Phil Lilley]

Patrick... really!! I loved that trip and if you didn't outfish me you didn't catch many. I struggled except one day of the trip that we floated the upper stretch. I catch several nice rainbows which was more than enough to make the trip a success. The company and the scenery was enough by themselves.

Sorry I don't remember you personally... it's been how many years? 10+?

Guiding... are the tailwaters of the White, Norfork, Greers Ferry Corp controled? I always thought guides on those river didn't need the OUPV 6-pack.

[Bill Babler]

Silver Mallard, was absolutely right on. Fantastic citing of the USCG rules.

For some reason, the guys in Arkansas Don't think they need the Licenses, when My Lic. say's navigatable white River inland waters restricted.

Who knows why the the USCG has chosen not to patrol or enforce the navigatable waters in Arkansas. And believe you me they are covered as the White drains into the Mississippi.

If you don't think you will ever get caught, you can ask Tim Sainato. He was one step from being cuffed and thrown in jail because of an expired lic.

The fine is $5,000.00 and denied permission to reinstate the lic. for a 5 yr. period, with 1 year imprisonment.

After a court battle with the government, and lawyer expenses, Tim was Fined $1,000.00, and no jail time.

Silver Mallard is Right as Rain, concerning the insurance. The Arkansas state lic., means nothing. Without that federal lic., any kind of an insurance clain is fradulant and not payable by the insurance company.

I have asked about Arkansas. I spoke to the head of Western Rivers enforcement officer, and he said their day will come, and when it does, it won't be pretty.

I have been involved in guiding and fishing across the entire US, and Arkansas, for some reason, Arkansas, thinks they are exempt from the rules the rest of the us have to follow. All the Missippi, Alabama, Louisana, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennesee, and Misssouri Guides are not exempt.

No offence at all ment for the hard working guides in Arkansas, it just seems funny they do not need a lic, when the rest of us do. They also come to taney, and that is where there going to get caught.

Taney, Table Rock and Lake of the Ozarks seem to be the hot beds for the USCG, not the Coast Guard Aux, But the big boys that can get you. Alot of times they are undercover as was with Tim's case. You can also talk to Bob Cline as he had a fierce run in. He was right, but they nit-picked him to pieces.

Most of the guides don't realize that you must keep that lic. on board any time you are taking passengers for hire. Even if you have it and its not on board, you for sure are going to get cited period.

As any government agency, there is no leway, the law is enforced as it is written. Great Post by the Mallard

[Danoinark]

Great info Cap'n. Can't wait to see the response from the Ark. contingent. Dano