Dentists beware, your next

[The Caddis]

No child left behind? This is the teacher's and administrator's fault. If kids go to the same school, have the same teacher, what is different? The parents.

My wife works with a woman whose kid has been in our son's classes many times over the years and consistently our son is at the top of the class while our neighbor is at the bottom. The difference, while we are at home with our kids involved in what they do, after work our neighbor hits happy hour while her kid is at home alone to feed himself, etc.

The neighbor blames the school, says they are labeling her son and that they should do something about it. The school provides the same classroom time that my kid gets, the same opportunities, the only difference is home life.

[troutchaser]

C'mon, guys. Let's keep this above the belt. There are some strong opinions about this subject, I know, but it boils down to the fact that we all care about our country, our children, and our freedom.

Let's try to keep the discussion on an intellectual plane, OK?

[Phil Lilley]

Good discussion. Interesting.

But I think we can have a good and intelligent discussion without making it personal, don't you?

Let's try a little harder, please.

[SilverMallard]

I was making a broad generalization...comparing our teachers of today to our teachers of yesteryear, Germany's teachers, and Japan's teachers (where I lived for 3 years and got to know a few). Of course there are some outstanding teachers, admins, and counselors in the public education system. God bless them! I don't know how they do it anymore. My best duck hunting buddy for many years was one such teacher who just recently retired. His wife is an excellent guidance counselor. I have two teachers in my family...the SIL I mentioned before and a niece. The SIL tries very hard and is way above average in today's public school system. My niece is severely learning disabled and barely snuck through college and certification. And I wouldn't want either of them teaching MY kids. I have dozens of more public school educators as friends and former teachers...who are now retired. Funny thing...I don't know but maybe 1-3 of the 20 or so who would disagree with me or take issue with anything I've posted here. Many of my opinions have been heavily influenced by them.

I don't know you Thom. So I am not categorizing you in any way. My statements are about the PROFESSION and INSTITUTION. I meant no offense to any individual. But I realize my words and opinions on this matter rub many the wrong way. I wish they didn't. But I will not apologize for my opinion.

And, Thom, if YOU have a right to one, so do I. We just happen to disagree. But stop acting like I attacked you, because I did no such thing.

[taxidermist]

My wife just came in from school, again she is iritated that many parents just don't care. The kids all talk about they "don't need no education" They have dreams of being loggers and working in sawmills. I think so sad. Some even think they don't need an education because they are going into the service (yes some families do know the real value of freedom). She tells them they still need an education, but the parents really dont give a crap. If it's good enough for them its good enough for their kids.

It is so sad that these kids many have not been out of state! Not to Branson or Springfield. Thier idea of big time is the punny fair in Harrison.

Few have internet but you can be sure they have Dishnet or another sat. tv. MOst live in run down housing but they you must remember the size of the house does not make it a home.

I feel the schools here are every student left behind. The emphasis is on sports!!! Wow two different teams in the state playoffs. How many pro sports stars came from small towns in America these days?

No our schools have left more than a few kids behind and those without finacial means or are slower learning are left way down the road.

So to test would require that all schools be taught at a nation wide standard with checks and balances along the way all year long.

Thats would also require that school board members not be allowed to pick the books the teachers are to use.

It could also require consolidation of small school districts to form better school districts. But the sports programs would suffer!!

My vote is do away with school sports programs, they only serve a select few students. If you don't play the basketball, football etc. programs are worthless.

There is possibly a impossible standard to reach nationwide testing of teachers and students. Some of the best teachers I had were not good students.

John

[Phil Lilley]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned WHAT is taught in public schools and what is NOT.

American History - we have such a rich history how and why this country was started, great men and what they said, but less than 1% is taught and much of what is left in is twisted to keep certain elements out.

[troutchaser]

You're right, Lilley.

When I found out my son, who is in middle school, had no idea what the preamble to the constitution was, I almost blew a vein. He knows now, as does his 9 year-old younger sister.

The worst part of it is that when I asked the history teacher why they don't know the preamble (I memorized it in the 4th grade), she gave me a look that made it obvious she had no idea what I was talking about. that is, until she suddenly 'remembered' it.

For those who might still be a little foggy on this one:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[SilverMallard]

troutchaser and Phil, that's my point about subject matter expertise.

When you have a whole cadre of teachers with degrees in SOCIOLOGY (education degrees), that's about all they know. And you cannot teach what you don't know. Sociology is all about group behavior and dynamics. So they know a little about making sheeple. And that's what they teach. A FREE society cannot thrive on an education system that makes sheeple. The Nazis and Communists thrived on such an education system. It works great for authoritarian societies. And this was all done intentionally and began with a core group of educators from the University of Chicago who were devout communists and socialists...not exactly interested in developing independent, free-thinking, self-sufficient citizens of a FREE society of equals.

I graduated from HS in 1984. And most of MY teachers had subject matter degrees and taught in their fields of expertise...until I moved to TX for HS. There most were coaches with degrees in PE and minors in education. Luckily, I had the foundation to take my education upon myself. I spent 1/2 my time in the school library and 1/2 my time...literally...TEACHING the school's computer science classes with a coach babysitting and taking the credit. Our speech and drama teacher had a degree in Spanish. Our Spanish teacher had no degree. Our biology and chemistry teacher had degrees in biology. And our English teachers had degrees in education. Two of the best teachers I had were coaches. But they had subject matter degrees in History. The 1980s was really when the change occurred and most teachers no longer had degrees in the subjects they taught because the teacher programs had changed in the 1970s to requiring a degree in education with tiny concentrations for certification in subject matter areas.

taxidermist, you are dead right in your last post except for that bit about getting rid of school sports. But I still say that testing is one of the first steps in the right direction. Without testing, you cannot diagnose the problems. And if you cannot diagnose them, you cannot fix them. I'm not suggesting that standardized testing is perfect or the end-all-be-all solution to the problem. But it is a necessary element of correcting a 40 year society-wide screw-up.

[jOrOb]

Subject matter is exactly my point about standardized testing. Once you establish a standardized test, that is the subject matter that will get taught. No more or less, just that subject matter. So the scores only reflect how well we can prepare students to pass that test.

I guess if the test is comprehensive enough then it works. The kicker here is that if we focus on test taking skills, and not content, test scores will still be high.

Testing is essential. I couldn't agree more. Testing is also the best way to assess teacher performance, no doubt. I just don't think the current high pressure single exam process that is in place right now is the answer.

I also do not agree with doing away with school sports. Time and again I see groups of students in public behaving well. These groups are usually athletic groups. High school sports teaches valuable lessons. I do agree that there is too much emphasis on it though.

I won't open that can of worms!

[SilverMallard]

100% agreed, jOrOb.