Native species

[gonefishin]

I don't think birds would be carrying fish eggs all the way from Asia, Africa or Germany to deliver them here in the Ozarks, much less be able to spend that much time in a birds gut without being digested but, if that were to happen then I would have to give them a native species award.

[jcoberley]

ok LOL then lets say that the eggs were eaten by a birs and when flight thay were struck by a jet and didnt fall off untill here and then they started reproducing! LOL... I really wasnt thinking of asia however I was thinking of maybe a few miles to a few hundred. But thats just a thought. Oh well.... I was just saying where would you draw the line. I also know of a few farm ponds that were never stocked by man but after 20 years thay have pirch, bluegill, bullhead and other fish in them. I would only guess that thay came from birds. however I guess they could have hoped across a lot of dry land and avoided all the cat, dogs, coons, and such to end up in a whole new world to them. Like I said its just a thought!

[Terry Beeson]

This has been a very good discussion and brought out some very good points. I think one phrase may have summed things up - "splitting hairs." If you think about man's intervention, before we Europeans and WASPS showed up, the native Americans COULD have "fooled" with Mother Nature. But then again, migration through natural waterways is a more believeable scenario.

Most of this is cut and dry, but there seem to be a lot of gray areas as well...

[Gavin]

It just depends on the body of water...For example, my own personal bias leads me to the following conclusions.

Non-Native and Undesirable

Asian Carp

Spotted Bass in most Ozark Streams

Didymo

Zebra Mussells

Non-native and desirable

Brown Trout

Rainbow Trout

Brook Trout

Largemouth Bass

Striped Bass Sp.

Non-native and indifferent species

Common Carp

Native and Desirable

Smallmouth bass

Rock Bass

Most Sunfish Species (except Green Sunfish)

Catfish

I'm probably way off base with some of the classifications, but its just my personal opinion. Cheers.

[gonefishin]

ok LOL then lets say that the eggs were eaten by a birs and when flight thay were struck by a jet and didnt fall off untill here and then they started reproducing! LOL... I really wasnt thinking of asia however I was thinking of maybe a few miles to a few hundred. But thats just a thought. Oh well.... I was just saying where would you draw the line. I also know of a few farm ponds that were never stocked by man but after 20 years thay have pirch, bluegill, bullhead and other fish in them. I would only guess that thay came from birds. however I guess they could have hoped across a lot of dry land and avoided all the cat, dogs, coons, and such to end up in a whole new world to them. Like I said its just a thought!

I bet the Beeson sneeked them in there.

Travel by feathered birds is one approved method of natural migration; travel by aluminum skinned birds is not. HEH HEH

[Terry Beeson]

I bet the Beeson sneeked them in there.

Did not!!!... Well, there WAS that squid that followed me home that time and I put him in Taney 'coz my goldfish bowl was too small for him when he started growin'... and now we all know him as the Taneycomo Giant Man-Eating Killer Squid... But other than that... DID NOT!!!

Hey Gavin... I'm curious... Why do you put the spotted bass in the "undesireable" column?

Also, what about the Spotted and LMB being "non-native?" I consider both native... (I've been wrong before...)

[gonefishin]

I agree with Gavin on the spots but what I dont understand is why didn't you put common carp in the undesirable list? :)

This whole concept of trying to make non-native fish native boggles my mind. The terms desirable/undesirable should replace native/non-native in most discussions.

Simple fact is that Brown Trout are desirable but will never be native to the Ozarks.

[Terry Beeson]

Simple fact is that Brown Trout are desirable but will never be native to the Ozarks.

Ahhhh... NOT so simple, my good friend... Read the post that brought this subject to light. Brown Trout are NOT necessarily desirable in some waters. The argument for and against them in the Eleven Point was valid on both sides and is a matter of opinion. That's the clear case in the "desirable/undesirable" question. I know there are many people of the opinion that the GBT should have never been introduced to the White River system period! Even though the last two world records came from that system. Some people are against ANY trout in the system. They have their reasons.

As for "native/non-native" issue, there are clearly some that are non-native such as the GBT and Asian Carp. But, to me, the question of certain fish being native is not so black and white in some cases.

I believe it was MTM who brought out the interpretation from a source that "native" was in reference to species in place during the European expansion into the western hemisphere. So, for purposes of reference, we'll say that any species in certain watersheds during the Lewis and Clark expedition and recorded by them would be considered native.

Philosophically and theoretically, any of the species MIGHT have been (although the probability is quite small) introduced by man into these watersheds. However, the means of migration into those watersheds is by no means of any real importance per say.

Back to my original question of what makes a species "native," I tend to agree that for all intents and purposes, we really have to say that it is those species that were in place during those early exploration days or have naturally migrated to these watersheds since.

Now... This brings up another subject. Take Table Rock Lake for instance. Prior to the time when TRL was formed by the construction of TRD, there were native species of fish in the watershed. After the lake began to fill up, the fish population was "helped" by man by stocking these species. Does this still qualify them as "native?"

By the way... before you question the TRL issue, this was common practice in many COE built watersheds, large and small, built during the 50s, 60s, and even the 70s. Flood control watershed lakes were built (including one on my father's farm in the 60s) that were supplemented with a stocking of fish (LMB in particular in our case) that were already present in the system.

(Geez, I can't help it... these discussions are good and educational... even if opinions differ... but please - no arguments or intentionally demeaning statements... except when GF says my opinions are really bogus... )

[Kayser]

Answer for how fish spread. Herons. They wade through the mass of fertilized eggs, leave with the eggs on their feet, and land somewhere else. I have a small pond near valmeyer, no fish could "wash in". Full of mosquitofish and a few small carp. Never a lack of herons.

Rob

[Terry Beeson]

We had a pond on the farm built years ago that had the same results. My dad claimed fish eggs could spread by rainfall... but I don't see any scientific proof of that... However, the bird theory (Heron or other) does have some validity. Sort of like bees and pollen...

But for GF... It was aliens, man.... ALIENS!! I swear!!