Native species

[Wayne SW/MO]

gavin why did you list the Largemouth as non-native?

[gonefishin]

Ahhhh... NOT so simple, my good friend... Read the post that brought this subject to light. Brown Trout are NOT necessarily desirable in some waters. The argument for and against them in the Eleven Point was valid on both sides and is a matter of opinion. That's the clear case in the "desirable/undesirable" question. I know there are many people of the opinion that the GBT should have never been introduced to the White River system period! Even though the last two world records came from that system. Some people are against ANY trout in the system. They have their reasons.

What you say is true. I am not really a big fan of brown trout. I prefer rainbows. However I don't look at the issue on an individuals personal preference. Whether or not I like them Brown Trout are generally considered desirable in the Ozarks, I don't know about other places. Because of this I consider them desirable but not native.

As for "native/non-native" issue, there are clearly some that are non-native such as the GBT and Asian Carp. But, to me, the question of certain fish being native is not so black and white in some cases.

To me this is simple. If the fish could have migrated here naturally, by swimming, by racoons or possums or birds they are natural. If they are delivered by jet, train, ocean liner, truck or automobile over natural barriers or distances they could never bridge naturally then they are not native.

I believe it was MTM who brought out the interpretation from a source that "native" was in reference to species in place during the European expansion into the western hemisphere. So, for purposes of reference, we'll say that any species in certain watersheds during the Lewis and Clark expedition and recorded by them would be considered native.

What ever happened to MTM? I havent heard from him in ages. He used to send me emails regularly.

The problem with using L&C as a reference is first they could not have documented every single species of animal and plant on their trip; second they only covered a small percentage of the land so certainly did not see all the wildlife.

Philosophically and theoretically, any of the species MIGHT have been (although the probability is quite small) introduced by man into these watersheds. However, the means of migration into those watersheds is by no means of any real importance per say.

To me it makes a huge difference. Under the above argument Zebra Mussels are native to the US.

Back to my original question of what makes a species "native," I tend to agree that for all intents and purposes, we really have to say that it is those species that were in place during those early exploration days or have naturally migrated to these watersheds since.

I agree with you on the above statement.

Now... This brings up another subject. Take Table Rock Lake for instance. Prior to the time when TRL was formed by the construction of TRD, there were native species of fish in the watershed. After the lake began to fill up, the fish population was "helped" by man by stocking these species. Does this still qualify them as "native?"

By the way... before you question the TRL issue, this was common practice in many COE built watersheds, large and small, built during the 50s, 60s, and even the 70s. Flood control watershed lakes were built (including one on my father's farm in the 60s) that were supplemented with a stocking of fish (LMB in particular in our case) that were already present in the system.

Well since LMB were were native to the river before it was dammed they are obviously native to TR.

(Geez, I can't help it... these discussions are good and educational... even if opinions differ... but please - no arguments or intentionally demeaning statements... except when GF says my opinions are really bogus... )

Hah Terry. You have never heard me say your arguments are bogus. Like you I enjoy the discussion. What I hate is the people who are closed minded to the point of being obnoxious. As to demeaning statements am sure I have made some but, I have never intentionally went out of my way to demean anyone.

Hey. Are you comming to the 'gill get together Sunday? I hope you can make it. I would really like to meet you.

gf

[motroutbum]

There is no proof that fish eggs spread by herons. Think about it.....fish eggs have to have water to live otherwise they would dry out. Come on now......we had this discussion in my fish ecology class a couple years ago. We all busted that myth.

i think that when he is reffering to me when he says to mtm. although I do remember mtm on othis forum

also...largemouth bass and spotted bass are native.

I agree with you in the fact that Lewis and Clark did not document every single species. I think that terry was using it as a reference to being historical.

like I said before, the native vs. non native is based on historical records. the common carp is native to china and a large part of Asia. Just like bamboo. Just because they have spread here and lived here for a while, doesnt make it native.

here is some food for thought. do some research on your own and type in native species in google and or yahoo and look up the wikipedia definition. oh lets see here.... here ya go ill just do it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduced_species

[Terry Beeson]

Yeah, GF, I know you haven't said that, but couldn't resist using that statement... One reason is because you do seem to like these discussions.

The "MTM" I refer to is MoTroutbuM... who I suppose I should refer to as MTB instead...

So, MTB, in the fish ecology class discussion, was there a theory or proven way secluded watersheds are propagated with fish? I say the bird theory (not necessarily heron legs) had validity due to the possibility of short distance propagation by a bird flying from one watershed to another.

Using L&C was a reference example. No, they did not record every species, but the recording of species (flora and fauna) found was part of their mission. And those species they did identify were assumed to be native to that region. Go to www.mongabay.com and look at the "new species" discovered in New Guinea's Foja Mountains. Let's take the green frog that looks very much to me like a tree frog that is found here. That species will now be known as native to that region due to this discovery. But how did it get there?

When I say the means of migration is not of importance, I meant from the historical accounts standpoint. Say, for instance, by some means a Native American back in 1000 AD introduced Brooke Trout into a cold water stream that before that had no Brookies. Would we consider them native since there is no record of that event? That's my point about the means of migration - PRE European discovery of the America's.

Sunday depends on a few factors this weekend. Cindy is working, but that leaves me in charge of Amanda. So it's pretty dicy if I will be there...

[motroutbum]

when you say watershed, do you mean different lakes, and or streams, To clarify that before I answer because a Watershed is defined as a ridge of high land dividing two areas that are drained by different river systems. Also called water parting, or The region draining into a river, river system, or other body of water.

Yes there was. Stocking by humans. Humans could and would go and catch and stock fish...ie bluegills and LMB or catfish, from previous fishing trips into a pond to have their own secluded fishing pond.

even if a bird did infact have a fish egg get stuck to its leg, the possibility of it coming off of the brids leg (after it had dried out) and landing in a spot that was already a fishes nest or area cleared is extremely unlikely. That egg would not survive without the parental care that they would get from the parents and It would need the proper sunlight and cleaning. There is no possible way that it would survive.

[Wayne SW/MO]

There are a lot of variables to take in to account when discussing whats native and whats not in 2007, so many that its difficult to arrive at a realistic conclusion.

We have 3 different groups, those that have been here before man affected them, or so we think. Those that were deliberately introduced, and those that were accidental introduced. Beyond the former is the group of species that have been expanded by man, have found friendly environments created by man, and species that have been introduced inadvertently.

Eventually our descendent's will wonder what the problem is, after all the lakes have been here forever.

[Gavin]

Not a big fan of spotted bass, because they have invaded and displaced the smallmouth bass on some of the streams I fish.

I listed the Largemouth bass as non-native because I'm not really sure where they came from..I'm sure they are native to some places, and not to others. Common species like LMB have been stocked all over the place, so who knows where some of them came from?

How bought a new category..

Dubious origins but still desirable...

LMB, Walleye, Born-Again Pole dancer's, etc..

[Terry Beeson]

OK... another bit of fodder for debate...

Armadillos... native to Missouri?

[Kayser]

Got a good one for ya: worms. According to National Geographic, all worms native to North America were wiped out during the last ice age. They were then accidentally introduced by Europeans that dumped ballast (dirt and rocks used to balance the ship) when they settled here. Does this mean that one of the most popular food sources for a wide range of animals is actually an invasive species?

Rob

[jcoberley]

Got a good one for ya: worms. According to National Geographic, all worms native to North America were wiped out during the last ice age. They were then accidentally introduced by Europeans that dumped ballast (dirt and rocks used to balance the ship) when they settled here. Does this mean that one of the most popular food sources for a wide range of animals is actually an invasive species?

Rob

I don't know about that. However if you place worms in damp corn flour for a day you can fry them up and there breaded on the inside. Plus there real tasty! Why else would all everthing else go so crazy over eating them!