Scuds, weighted or unweighted?

[strangercreek]

I used to fish bead head scuds (vinyl ribbing with tungsten bead) with much success but haven't had much luck with that lately so I have been tying scuds with dubbing, raffia, etc. My question is, do they work better unweighted with a splitshot or weighted with lead? I seem to have a slow streak on nymph fishing lately.

[SGFChief]

We went with split shot (#4 i think) last week and had decent luck just below the dam with an indicator about 18 inchs up.

[Fox Statler]

Always weight the bug, because the fish do not have to move the fly then move the weight before they move the indicator. In the weighted bug the weight is the fly.

If you are having trouble catching fish on nymphs try these tips.

Tie all you patterns on small wire dry fly hooks. These hook penetrate the flesh of the trouts mouth deeper and easier with less force, thus making better sets.

Use a size smaller fly. If you are catching some fish on a #14, you usually catch more on a #16.

If a smaller fly doesn't produce more, use a smaller tippet. The smaller tippet lets the fly fall faster, causes less drag, hugs the bottom better, and is less visible.

With a smaller fly and tippet, use a smaller more sensitive indicator. I prefer closed-cell foam picture mounting tape for my indicators because I can make my indicators as sensitive as I want.

Use a softer tip rod, after setting it will hold the fish better and be more in tune with using smaller tippets.

Use a small simple dropper about 14 inches below the weighted bug or use two weighted bugs in fast water. Two bugs are better than one bug and a split shot even if the top bug is hookless to comply with a one hook law.

[strangercreek]

Always weight the bug, because the fish do not have to move the fly then move the weight before they move the indicator. In the weighted bug the weight is the fly.

If you are having trouble catching fish on nymphs try these tips.

Tie all you patterns on small wire dry fly hooks. These hook penetrate the flesh of the trouts mouth deeper and easier with less force, thus making better sets.

Use a size smaller fly. If you are catching some fish on a #14, you usually catch more on a #16.

If a smaller fly doesn't produce more, use a smaller tippet. The smaller tippet lets the fly fall faster, causes less drag, hugs the bottom better, and is less visible.

With a smaller fly and tippet, use a smaller more sensitive indicator. I prefer closed-cell foam picture mounting tape for my indicators because I can make my indicators as sensitive as I want.

Use a softer tip rod, after setting it will hold the fish better and be more in tune with using smaller tippets.

Use a small simple dropper about 14 inches below the weighted bug or use two weighted bugs in fast water. Two bugs are better than one bug and a split shot even if the top bug is hookless to comply with a one hook law.

Thanks for the tips. That is a good point about the fly actually being the weight. I never really thought about it like that. I know it makes casting easier.

[jscheetz]

Hey Stranger,

Fox has a good point about tippet size - I have been fishing right next to someone who is catching fish like crazy and I am only catching a few - both using the same fly, same presentation. But then I switch to the dreaded 7x tippet and can't keep 'em off. So sometimes just going down a size helps.

Also, I would suggest if there is a bit of current, not using an indicator. If you have floating line that should suffice. Yesterday they were hitting pretty lightly and the reaction time to set the hook is longer when using an indicator than when you feel them take it. I was drifting a scud with just a wrap of wire around the body for a little weight, and no other weight - and in 1 to 2 feet of water. If you are fishing deeper water then you may need some more weight, I just think the scud moves more naturally without very much weight. If you are used to an indicator and haven't fished much without one then it may seem a little weird, but once you start to feel the strikes or "pickups" I think you can catch more fish that way.

JS

[Fox Statler]

I think the scuds moves more naturally when fished under and indicator. The scud swims backwards blindly bumping into the debris on the bottom. After running into something he swims up or around the object then continues to follow the bottom until striking another object. Scuds are your best wind bug, fishing a scud under an indicator when the water has a little chop on the surface is the most productive scud fishing situation because it imitates their mode of swimming best.

When fishing without an indicator with any small fly, you have to keep tension on the fly that pulls the fly from the bottom or across the bottom and away from the fish. How about the situation when the trout sees a food item, stops swimming, and drifts with the current when taking the fly? If there is any slack in your line, you will not detect the strike without an indicator. In current this senario is even more evident. If your leader is sinking between the indicator and the fly line (this makes slower sets) then grease it with a Fly Floatant like Fly Dap. The bend in the leader created by the floating indicator does not slow your set any more than a bow or sag in a leader when not using an indicator.

There is nothing lost when fishing a small indicator, instead something is added - a visual indication when something happens to your fly. I have a problem with mending the line, letting the fly drift naturally drag free with the current, and trying to maintain enough tension on the line to feel the strike. In math we call that a paradox. Drag Free and Tension are opposites.

There are three basic ways the fly and an indicator lands on the water. Believe it or not one way is better than the other two.

First senario - the fly lands upstream of the indicator. In this situation, the fly is being pulled imediately downstream by the indicator. This senario is best used when the distance between the indicator and fly is of much greater distance than the depth of the water (2 foot or more) or when fishing over a debris filled bottom.

Second senario - the fly lands across stream of the indicator. This is the most common senario and it quickly turns in to the first senario because of the movement of the current.

Third senario and best senario - the fly lands downstream of the indicator. This senario produces more fish per cast than either the first or second senario and can't be done without an indicator. I am not going to explain why the third senario catches more fish yet, but I am living proof that it catches several times more fish than the first or second senario. I will explain it later but I want you to imagine in 3-D what is happening in the third senario.

[Danoinark]

Fox

I think one of my critical issues with indicator fishing is placement of the indicator. I know the hard fast rule is 1 and 1/2 times the depth of the water, but I am not sure that should hold true. Any tips for getting the correct depth? I am a lazy fisherman and I hate adjusting and re adjusting, yada, yada, yada. What would be an example of indicator fishing your worm scud for instance.

Dano

[Fox Statler]

Dano,

I fish the worm scud usually as a dropper (in the catch-n-release areas I breakoff the hook of the weighted bug to get by the rule of one hook point) about 14-18 inches below the weighted fly. If I am fishing a fast run, like around the islands at Charlie Cook's place on the North Fork, I set the indicator the same depth as the deepest part of the run in that area measuring from the weighted fly to the indicator. I don't worry with the unweighted worm scud pattern. I don't ever fish one-n-half times the depth of the water. I want the fly to bounce off of the high points of the bottom, not to ride the bottom. If your indicator is dead-drifting slightly slower than the bubbles on the surface, you are correct in your depth and drift. Iwould think with all of the algae problems we are having that fishing the fly too deep would become a cast-n-clean situation.

[Danoinark]

If your indicator is dead-drifting slightly slower than the bubbles on the surface, you are correct in your depth and drift.

Good info, thanks Fox.

Dano

[jscheetz]

Dang Fox,

That dissertation had more points in it than the last State of the Union speech! Many good ones as well! I can't say that using an indicator doesn't make a scud fly look more natural or not - don't know if mine look all that natural anyway but... I still think that for me, when I fish without an indicator I cut down on the time between strike and set. Guess it just seems like the indicator is just one more thing between the strike and the set - one more sense in my brain that has to engage to get the job done. There are times when an indicator sure helps depending on the current, but it's just like feeling a really light walleye bite - it is just a feel thing to me.

Of course it could be my inner snob cause when I use an indicator sometimes I feel like I'm fishin' for bluegills with a cane pole

JS